What Does Light Side Faction Mean?

[Micah tol Powl]

This didn't belong in the mission sign up thread, so I'm creating a new topic.

Hello All,

I meant this as a way of bringing us all together, not as something to drive a wedge between us. Jedi are capable of working alongside those with a darkside aura. Nothing in our code dictates that we must destroy all people who follow in the darkside. You can fight alongside a Republic soldier who is a darksider as long as they break no Republic laws and are there to help.

As a Jedi you can not like the fact that they are a darksider, but if they are being cooperative and helping in the fight and not breaking any laws, you are going to have to deal with it. Luckily canon does have Jedi and Darksiders working side-by-side a bit, so it isn't all that unheard of.

While I can understand why the FAs may take this position from an OOC perspective of having who you have in a faction, and wanting it to be able to work where no one is excluded, I have to point out that from an In-Character perspective this creates a paradox between Republic Law and the Jedi Code.

I'm going to quote the 3 dictates in the Jedi Code that are the most pertinent to this, which creates an In-Character mandate with several important distinctions.

JEDI CODE OF CONDUCT

1. Believe in the Order’s teachings and observe the Order’s directions.

2. Defend the Order before your other allegiances.

4. Combat the Dark Side in all of its forms, both within and without, but fight with mercy and passion, not with anger or rage.

I've added emphasis there, obviously. The point being, it does not matter what Republic law is or may say. The Jedi serve the Order, not the Republic. All other considerations (Republic law, etc) are secondary. That's the In-Character reason why Jedi don't hold office, etc within the Republic.

If there is a plausible in-character explanation that would support the Jedi "combating the Dark Side in all its forms" -- except if that Darksider was part of the Republic, I'm curious to see it elaborated upon and explained in some further detail. If that's true, then Mace Windu should have been completely cool that Chancellor Palpatine was Darth Sidious.

If the FAs are going to dictate OOC that Jedi characters react otherwise (e.g. deal with it, you can't do anything about it... but don't forget you can't train under them or there will be in-character consequences for that), then the Code should be changed. Though there's something to be said for the fact that my Jedi would face in-character consequences from training under a Darksider, yet the Darksider faces no in-character consequences for being a Darksider in a light side faction.

The Republic is not a neutral faction last I checked. Obviously that can be changed. There are certainly examples of factions that are successful in having both Jedi and Dark Jedi in the mix (Levantine and Vitae being two examples that spring to mind immediately). But they also don't, to my knowledge, put themselves out there as a light side faction, with Codes specific to combating the Dark Side.

To summarize:
- I can't train with a Darksider, without my Jedi drawing in-character consequences
- I shouldn't be able to spar with a Darksider, because that ought to constitute training, which is prohibited
- I can't react other than to "not like it" if there's a Republic faction Darksider not breaking the law (note: everything Chancellor Palpatine did was legal according to the law of the Republic at the time).
- But, in character, I have to combat the Dark Side in all its forms.

Am I the only one who sees a disconnect here?

I'm open to the idea that maybe I am just being overly critical or too closed minded, but reading the comments in the mission sign up thread and realizing my concerns for the direction the faction appears to be taking, I figure it was worth throwing this out for discussion.

And that's all this is intended to be. I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. What I'm saying is, I see an IC requirement for my character that says X... and an OOC requirement that says Y. And the two appear to be in conflict. And its not apparent to me just how that resolves itself so that I can apply that to my stories in terms of how my character reacts, what my character reacts to, and what the expectations of the Faction Team are with regard to characters and stories for the faction.

tl;dr Characters that have Darkside auras can be awesome and I'm not telling anyone what they should, could, would, or have to write about. But saying OOC that our Jedi characters have to suck it up and cannot react in-character other than to "not like it" doesn't seem to jive in-character.

 

[Zenitha Chuma]

I agree, I found the post strangely confusing. My biggest upset with the post was the "deal with it," as if the FAs have started directing our faction members how to conduct themselves ICly. Just a short while ago, there was a post warning us of in-character consequences for actions like this, so it seems strange that the FAs would suddenly reverse this stance and require a restriction of IC roleplay in this regard.

I hope someone can clear this up.

 

[Darth Eversor]

Eh... I can't help but feel I'm responsible for some of this. :/ Even if I'm not, I'd like to say that with all due respect, a Jedi can and should be able to work alongside someone who has the same intentions in mind. Now, I'm not saying drop your guard or to just give a big 'ol hug to anyone with a dark aura, but I am trying to imply strongly that there's nothing wrong in being respectable to someone who is at least willing to put their life on the line for a cause that you yourself would strive for.

I'd also like to extend an apology to anyone that may have taken offense to my little argument in the mission thread. I hope this doesn't create too much controversy or tension between myself or anyone else who may have a different opinion.

Above all else, I'd like to be given a chance. One chance is all I ask for, if things don't work then I'll just leave the Republic with no questions asked and with no hard feelings.

 

[Micah tol Powl]

No, this has nothing to do with you at all, [member="Abraxas"]

Its a question that has to do with how Jedi respond to Darksiders in any faction. Whether you were Republic, Levantine, Primeval, or One Sith there's one dictate that says Jedi combat Darksiders "in all forms"

But if we're adding or expanding that it doesn't apply to Republic Darksiders, then there has to be some bridge that links that so that it makes sense In-Character.

And that can depend on the character. Zak would run up to Abraxas, comment on his armor, think he was cool and probably would hug him depending on how that interaction went.

Sor-Jan would sense a Dark Side aura (unless Abraxas was concealing himself in the Force) and immediately be on the defensive, as he'd perceive Abraxas as a threat -- either to the Jedi or the Republic or both. And his reactions would be based on that reaction and need to combat the Dark Side.

 

[Via Dolorosa]

[member="Zak Dymo"]

I understand where you are coming from. However, this character is a Vahla which means she has the Darkside born into her. Does it mean she is a Sith? No. Does it mean she is a Dark Jedi? No.

It's something she is born with just like a Togruta is born with montails or a Twi'lek is born with Lekkus. What one is born with is something that they don't choose....they just accept it and hope others accept it as well. If not, then so be it.

Yes, the Darkside is and always will be present inside and with her. But it doesn't mean she will or has to embrace it. If people wish to exclude this character from Jedi games....so be it. Their loss really.

However, one final note.....this charcter's Jedi Master is [member="Corvus Raaf"] and if she feels this chracter is not a threat despite her heritage....then nobody should to.

 

[Darth Eversor]

[member="Zak Dymo"]

If a Jedi is to fight darksiders in all forms, then wouldn't it be a double standard to have them work with a darksider but also engage Sith or something akin to that? I'm simply going off knowledge alone that Jedi have worked outside of their comfort zone just to see a means to an end; however, it really all depends on how the situation is approached.

I'm not asking or saying that I should be left alone IC, but I am saying that outright attacking me without a concrete reason makes it all seem like paranoia or straight-up distrust. One key reason I find that identifies Abraxas differently is the fact that he wouldn't be serving the Jedi Order or its doctrine, rather, he'd be working under a contract for military intelligence and other things that Jedi have no jurisdiction in.

It's safe to say that Abraxas or any Jedi shouldn't be working too closely or else it might raise questions in a political sense.

 

[Micah tol Powl]

[member="Ciara Jevnaker"] there's a difference between having touched the Dark Side and using the Dark Side of the Force.

That's where I'd see the Vahla, or characters like Mace Windu. Unless you're using the Dark Side of the Force, then you're not a Dark Jedi. But for characters who identify as using the Dark Side of the Force, our IC Jedi Code lays out a very specific mandate.

Also, who your master is absolutely doesn't dictate how a CHARACTER may feel about another character.

Maybe I'm reading a tone in your post that isn't there, but I get the sense you're taking the OP personal. This has nothing to do with OOC or writers. This is a purely in-character issue.

 

[Micah tol Powl]

[member="Zak Dymo"]

If a Jedi is to fight darksiders in all forms, then wouldn't it be a double standard to have them work with a darksider but also engage Sith or something akin to that?

This is exactly the point I'm making in the OP.

 

[Zenitha Chuma]

I'm not asking or saying that I should be left alone IC, but I am saying that outright attacking me without a concrete reason makes it all seem like paranoia or straight-up distrust.

Paranoia and straight-up distrust for a Jedi of a darksider seems in-character and plausible to me. This kind of thing deserves the roleplay, especially if you decide to slot your character into a high-stress mission with high ranking Republic Jedi.

 

[Darth Eversor]

[member="Zak Dymo"]

Well here's the other thing, Abraxas was created with the intent of being a weapon both physically and through the Force. He didn't have a choice as to what he was or how he'd develop his power, he was created in a lab and designated to be more like a murderous machine as opposed to a person with feelings or morals. What the Jedi have in personality and teaching, Abraxas doesn't. He was never Sith nor was he ever guided by them. He simply is a product.

 

[Zenitha Chuma]

[member="Abraxas"]

And that's going to be interesting character development. Does that automatically mean that all Jedi characters are going to embrace him with open arms? No. Might some Jedi/lightside characters be mistrustful or even openly hostile? Yes.

If Aimone met Abraxas, he would probably be quite fearful and be on a hair trigger. Does this mean that I, the writer, dislike your character? No, it doesn't. I just means that my character and your character are not likely to have a pleasant conversation on their first meeting in character.

 

[Micah tol Powl]

[member="Abraxas"] you keep making this about you. Let me repeat, it's not about you.

Let's use an example on point of in-character roleplay based on character status or characteristics.

[member="Megan Rhymes"] has a prejudice against non-humans. She was in a thread with Zak, who is obviously not human. She reacted to him based on him being non-human. This discrimination was mostly portrayed through internalized commentary but it was something that added great flavor to the roleplay. My character can't control that he was born a non-human.

This isn't any different that the above.

 

[Darth Eversor]

[member="Zak Dymo"]

Sorry, got carried away. :c

[member="Aimone"]

Aye, I agree with all of that. It definitely would be an interesting RP.

 

[Kenrath]

Being a "light side" faction is nothing more than trying to justify actions as moral or ethical because they were done for a "Noble" purpose.

A Sith kills a Jedi he/she is an evil murdered. A Jedi kills a Sith and He/she is defending against tyranny for the sake of freedom.

You can hack it apart providing any justification you want but in the end we are all just two sides of the same coin. It is why more often than not I tend to play nuetral or gray FUs when not rolling Sith. Even then Arturious was more gray than most of the Sith around him.

[member="Zak Dymo"]

 

[Via Dolorosa]

[member="Zak Dymo"]

No, there is no tone there. You and I are good. I take no offense to the OP.

However, some people have a difficulty understanding not just what a Vahla is but why one would be a Jedi. I can take criticism just as I can easily defend myself.

This is the first Jedi I ever played before on any SWRP site...so It's a learning process for me.


[member="Abraxas"]

There's a book, Fatal Alliance, that is written about Jedi and Sith working together to stop an enemy/threat far worse than what each other's respectable Orders can produce against the other.

My alternate character, A Sith Lord, has worked with a Jedi Master from the Council in a thread based off the topic in that book. It's plausible for Jedi/Sith to work together but it's not really feasible. It takes some creativity between both writers to pull that off without one of them trying to draw the other to the side....or one betraying the other.

In truth, it was one of the most funniest threads I ever done!

 

[Jsc]

Some scribbles,

• The Republic Faction can theoretically foster just as many storylines and adventures for Dark, Neutral, and Light characters. But we don't. Because we don't.

Be nice to everyone on the Faction Forum. We're just writers. Not avatars.

 

[Jsc]

removed

 

[Micah tol Powl]

Excellent points, all.

I appreciate the feedback and responses.

 

[Corvus Raaf]

You know when people jump into a thread and say that some good arguments have been raised but they're just patronising and wish everyone would shut up and move on.

This is NOT one of those posts.

This debate has happened in the Jedi Council - and not reached a conclusion. In the latest Council thread, Corvus will raise it again.

This debate happens in the Jedi Council, IC and OOC leadership Skype chats. And has not reached a conclusion.

But there are some facts we have to hand (and don't start me on Mace Windu - his attempt to kill Sidious at the end was against the Jedi Code IMHO and oddly it was Anakin that reminded him of the fact - but I digress - as I often do).

Fact 1:
We have a Jedi Code of Conduct that is very clear about interaction with Dark-siders (I'm not debating the quality or validity of the content, just the fact it exists)

Fact 2:
We are a Light-sided Faction

Fact 3:
Jedi are Jedi first, foremost and only

Fact 4:
The Jedi serve the Galactic Republic

Fact 5:
There is no reference to the Dark-side or the Sith in the Jedi Code

Where am I going with all of this? There is no specific line from the Code that says how Jedi should interact with Dark-siders. Nor is there anything that says how the Republic should treat Dark-siders.

Which means it's open to interpretation. It's for each individual to do what they think is right BUT it is reasonable to expect some guidance from the leadership.

Corvus' view? (And I mean not the writer's per se).

The Republic is free to choose who it allies with. We've had examples in the past of FU bodies that use the Dark-side being accepted by the IC leadership team as Allies. Were the Jedi consulted? No, because the GR IC Leadership thought it was none of their business. This is NOT a criticism, it makes sense. And Corvus kept well away from these characters during Invasions. Because yes, she'd probably want to arrest them.

The GR Jedi only ally with Jedi at present - or perhaps more accurately Light-sided users. There is a Council member that wants to ally with Dark-sided FUs. Corvus is opposed. She does not understand where a Sith ends and a Dark Jedi begins. But Corvus would never dream of telling any other Jedi body what they should do - that's up to them.

Corvus has a Vahla Padawan - but she follows the Light-side - therefore no issue. She has a younger sister that's an 'active' Sith. Corvus would arrest her on sight. She'd want to turn her once captured - but she'd not reconcile future deaths being on her conscience.

Yet I'm sure many characters have come across DS characters and not immediately tried to kill them. Does that make them bad Jedi? No - context is always relevant. But to take training from one? That feels like a further step IMHO.

So...Dark-sided members of the Republic? And I mean openly DS. Those who hide their true allegiance should RP that situation IC. I'm talking about characters that are obviously DS. Do we say we are an LS Faction and you have to leave?

This debate simply echoes what's been said many times in other conversations and perhaps it's about time we either did something about it or left it alone.

So thanks [member="Zak Dymo"] for raising the issue and let's decide which avenue we stroll down.

 

[Kian Karr]

I agree with Corvus (shocking I know!). And thank you for bringing this thread up, it happily coincides with us discussing it in the Jedi Council Skype Room!

As for my comments of "deal with it," I'm sorry if they bothered you in any way but that post was meant to address the OOC angst that was being caused within that OOC thread. How you wish to RP out these interactions is entirely up to you.

That being said, we should try to remember that this is about making a story that is fun to those involved in it. If a member of the Republic is a darksider and wishes to be involved in a thread, perhaps open communication regarding what reaction will happen is needed. A person shouldn't enter a thread and immediately feel "attacked" by those in it - especially if they are doing nothing wrong. I'm glad this post is up and I'm glad the Council is discussing this further as it will hopefully help us deal with the IC issues, but for now, lets try to ensure that writers are having fun!!

After all that is what this is all about.