Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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What is a Sith to you
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nihil
[SIZE=13.63636302948px][member="VlPER"] I don't agree with your interpretation of the Sith, it doesn't give the ideology enough credit and it doesn't give the reader enough credit to read between the lines. Your analysis of the Sith is made entirely in a void of cultural context and fails to take into the account the circumstances in which these Sith live (The same way that civilized cultures could view the habits and traditions of tribes as inhumane or 'evil'). Not only that, but it fails to attribute their actions to anything beyond selfishness, which is misleading at best and a poor interpretation of the character. Everything Palpatine did could be contributed to his belief that it would achieve order. From our view, his actions were 'evil'. And that's the beauty of the character, that he could be created in a way that his views and that of the reader/viewer could be so diametrically opposed. Same thing with Darth Krayt. Good and evil is merely a human-centric concept that we, as civilized cultures, developed in society, completely removed from the environment in which the Jedi and Sith were created. To call all Sith evil is to do the lore and struggle of the Sith, in general, a great disservice. [/SIZE]
VlPER
Victory is mine!
According to lore, Sith society ALWAYS collapses in on itself as soon as it has destroyed all opposition. Why? Because its culture. It is because of Sith culture and ideology that they are what normal people would consider evil. They lack loyalty, honor, respect and a half dozen other good qualities because of their self centered way of thinking.
nihil
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]And from the view of history and through our lens of modern living, the Vikings were menacing and 'evil' because of their culture aimed towards raiding, killing, and pillaging. It doesn't mean they were evil, it means that they held a different set of core values. And that's where the issue arises, applying our sense of right and wrong to a culture that doesn't have the same core values. In a sense, assuming that your culture is somehow better or more right than theirs. The question of good and evil is far more subjective than many would like to admit. But lets get back to the original question posted by [member="sabrina"], as I am sure there are plenty of other topics we could continue this conversation on.[/SIZE]
The Lion King
What is a Sith to me?
I have met a few in my travels, and not all are the evil, maniacal psychopaths every padawan grows up hearing about. They are determined, incredibly focused on their goals, and a worthy adversary on the battlefield. They heed the dark desires all sentient beings are capable of and act on a carnal instinct rather than cautious thought, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. However, it's what you do that defines you, and the Sith have committed many evils across the innumerable millennia with few signs of ceasing such activities.
In my mind, Sith should not be hated, but pitied. I don't say that to belittle them, but rather to let them know that I understand what they do, but I do not approve of their general behaviour. I respect them as an enemy and our differences in opinion and religion.
Note: This is an IC post.
I have met a few in my travels, and not all are the evil, maniacal psychopaths every padawan grows up hearing about. They are determined, incredibly focused on their goals, and a worthy adversary on the battlefield. They heed the dark desires all sentient beings are capable of and act on a carnal instinct rather than cautious thought, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. However, it's what you do that defines you, and the Sith have committed many evils across the innumerable millennia with few signs of ceasing such activities.
In my mind, Sith should not be hated, but pitied. I don't say that to belittle them, but rather to let them know that I understand what they do, but I do not approve of their general behaviour. I respect them as an enemy and our differences in opinion and religion.
Note: This is an IC post.
B E A C O N
Sith, as they were originally, and as they were once Darth Bane redeemed them as what they were meant to be, are two types of individual. There are the Sith whom believe themselves to be striving for perfection, who wish to obtain ultimate power and rule the galaxy and all that nonsense.
Then there are the Sith whom actually live beyond being someone's apprentice. Their goals are singular, they do not share a vision with others, they do not believe in petty ideals such as pragmatism, and they only follow whatever semblance of a code that they, themselves, have created. Many of them are sociopaths, something I see has been misunderstood by those commenting here - you must be mistaking sociopath with psychopath. And all of them have a grand plan that goes farther than themselves, and seek to fulfill it by any means necessary through objective means. "Through any means necessary" does not mean acting chaotically and doing whatever strikes their fancy, it means choosing the best choice at that moment to further their goals. This is called an objective decision, which is far removed from subjective decisions that involve morals and other petty ideals. While these goals are often different by a large margin, they are still the same in that they all have a goal to achieve and do so with planning.
Also, it is my opinion that Sith are neutral-evil, rather than lawful or chaotic anything. Chaotic is not evil, Lawful is not good. Neutral is neutral of both, and is the only alignment in the Law/Chaotic scale that chooses objectively.
Then there are the Sith whom actually live beyond being someone's apprentice. Their goals are singular, they do not share a vision with others, they do not believe in petty ideals such as pragmatism, and they only follow whatever semblance of a code that they, themselves, have created. Many of them are sociopaths, something I see has been misunderstood by those commenting here - you must be mistaking sociopath with psychopath. And all of them have a grand plan that goes farther than themselves, and seek to fulfill it by any means necessary through objective means. "Through any means necessary" does not mean acting chaotically and doing whatever strikes their fancy, it means choosing the best choice at that moment to further their goals. This is called an objective decision, which is far removed from subjective decisions that involve morals and other petty ideals. While these goals are often different by a large margin, they are still the same in that they all have a goal to achieve and do so with planning.
Also, it is my opinion that Sith are neutral-evil, rather than lawful or chaotic anything. Chaotic is not evil, Lawful is not good. Neutral is neutral of both, and is the only alignment in the Law/Chaotic scale that chooses objectively.
Darth Veles
Sweet Avreet
[member="VlPER"]
I disagree. Sith certainly do not lack loyalty, honor and respect. Again, it depends on every individual, but many examples have shown the Sith possessing those qualities. The best example might be SWToR. The player's character can be either Sith or Jedi, meaning the game offers a nice insight into the other side of the conflict and things are not as black and white as from the Jedi side of the game.
During my evil playthrough, picking all Dark Side choices, other Sith NPCs often commented on my character lacking greater insight and wasting resources, sometimes outright failing a mission as my char picked the evil choice that ruined everything. No wonder, as the majority of the Dark Side choices in the game lacked sense and could be described as Evil Stupid.
When I played as a Light Side Sith, others constantly praised her for showing a good understanding of the Sith Code, wisely using resources, performing good on missions,... Light Side choices were not always the "good good", but often showed pragmatism and healthy judgement. Why kill the prisoners when you can interrogate them and trade them for captured Sith troopers? Why kill a Republic commander when you can let him publicly state the Republic started a civil war on one of the planets?
So the true Sith, the one from the Light Side playthrough, certainly did not lack honor or loyalty.
I disagree. Sith certainly do not lack loyalty, honor and respect. Again, it depends on every individual, but many examples have shown the Sith possessing those qualities. The best example might be SWToR. The player's character can be either Sith or Jedi, meaning the game offers a nice insight into the other side of the conflict and things are not as black and white as from the Jedi side of the game.
During my evil playthrough, picking all Dark Side choices, other Sith NPCs often commented on my character lacking greater insight and wasting resources, sometimes outright failing a mission as my char picked the evil choice that ruined everything. No wonder, as the majority of the Dark Side choices in the game lacked sense and could be described as Evil Stupid.
When I played as a Light Side Sith, others constantly praised her for showing a good understanding of the Sith Code, wisely using resources, performing good on missions,... Light Side choices were not always the "good good", but often showed pragmatism and healthy judgement. Why kill the prisoners when you can interrogate them and trade them for captured Sith troopers? Why kill a Republic commander when you can let him publicly state the Republic started a civil war on one of the planets?
So the true Sith, the one from the Light Side playthrough, certainly did not lack honor or loyalty.
VlPER
Victory is mine!
The brotherhood collapsed, swtor they never had a chance to as they were defeated before they achieved overall victory and could devolve.
Galactic empire had no Sith for a brief moment. In no small part I imagine because guess what palpatine turned on his apprentice. So for a brief moment they collapsed into non existence. Lol
As for the one Sith, I don't have enough information to debate it. So I won't either way.
But for a third time, this is how actual Sith designed by Lucas are. Not how Sith can be when created and played by more accomplished writers. Lucas says Sith are evil. Sorry Sabrina. That means actual Sith are evil.
As brought out though. Real world is not so black and white. There are many variations and levels of evil and good. But canon Sith are this way.
Galactic empire had no Sith for a brief moment. In no small part I imagine because guess what palpatine turned on his apprentice. So for a brief moment they collapsed into non existence. Lol
As for the one Sith, I don't have enough information to debate it. So I won't either way.
But for a third time, this is how actual Sith designed by Lucas are. Not how Sith can be when created and played by more accomplished writers. Lucas says Sith are evil. Sorry Sabrina. That means actual Sith are evil.
As brought out though. Real world is not so black and white. There are many variations and levels of evil and good. But canon Sith are this way.
VlPER
Victory is mine!
[member="Darth Veles"] all your example shows is that they are intelligent enough to be opportunistic. It doesn't show any good qualities such as mercy or compassion. You are confusing the two. Here I'll give you an example along the same lines.
On another site, I was in charge of a Sith academy. I tried training my students exactly along the same lines as you described. Why kill someone when they can be used. Anyway, the academy thread eventually failed because people didn't think I was Sith enough. Despite the fact that I was being manipulative, cold and calculating.
It because I wasn't showing a bloodthirsty, merciless wipe out everyone for no reason attitude that they left.
On another site, I was in charge of a Sith academy. I tried training my students exactly along the same lines as you described. Why kill someone when they can be used. Anyway, the academy thread eventually failed because people didn't think I was Sith enough. Despite the fact that I was being manipulative, cold and calculating.
It because I wasn't showing a bloodthirsty, merciless wipe out everyone for no reason attitude that they left.
Darth Veles
Sweet Avreet
[member="VlPER"]
What should I say? Some people want to play Evil Stupid
Those were poor examples I provided, but I vaguely remember something about giving a Republic officer a word and having a choice to keep it or not after he was no longer useful. Again, this depends on individual characters.
About your point of the Sith being evil as stated by Lucas...
Yes, Sith are meant to be antagonists, but were they really that evil in Lucas' movies?
The Jedi, who wanted to exterminate their entire culture are dead. The Sith have brought peace and prosperity to the galaxy, only to have the legitimate government be attacked by terrorists who want to overthrow Palpatine and are not afraid of starting civil war to do it. As ironic as it is, the Sith are the ones who protect peace in the last three movies, pretty much replacing the Jedi. Even the protagonist, Luke Skywalker, wants to join the Imperial Academy at the beginning of episode 4....
- Tarkin was the one who ordered the destruction of Alderaan, not Vader or Palps from the way I understand it. Leia argued that Alderaan is peaceful, but then again, she said to Vader her ship was on a peaceful mission or something... while being loaded with terrorists and stolen Death Star plans.
- Vader choking officers. It is important to note he was not killing random people for fun, but only those who have failed him two times and often caused deaths of their men.
- IDK what else to add?
My point is, the Sith may not be good, but they are far from bloodthirsty beasts who kill for the sake of it, and the movies are being told from the rebel POV. I believe I have read something about the movies existing IC and they are, yes, nothing but rebel propaganda.
The reason they are portrayed as monsters in books and games is because of the reason I have stated before, lazy writing and unwillingness to delve deeper into the Sith way of life. Why would the writers do it, anyway? The want a monster, not a sympathetic villain.
What should I say? Some people want to play Evil Stupid
Those were poor examples I provided, but I vaguely remember something about giving a Republic officer a word and having a choice to keep it or not after he was no longer useful. Again, this depends on individual characters.About your point of the Sith being evil as stated by Lucas...
Yes, Sith are meant to be antagonists, but were they really that evil in Lucas' movies?
The Jedi, who wanted to exterminate their entire culture are dead. The Sith have brought peace and prosperity to the galaxy, only to have the legitimate government be attacked by terrorists who want to overthrow Palpatine and are not afraid of starting civil war to do it. As ironic as it is, the Sith are the ones who protect peace in the last three movies, pretty much replacing the Jedi. Even the protagonist, Luke Skywalker, wants to join the Imperial Academy at the beginning of episode 4....
- Tarkin was the one who ordered the destruction of Alderaan, not Vader or Palps from the way I understand it. Leia argued that Alderaan is peaceful, but then again, she said to Vader her ship was on a peaceful mission or something... while being loaded with terrorists and stolen Death Star plans.
- Vader choking officers. It is important to note he was not killing random people for fun, but only those who have failed him two times and often caused deaths of their men.
- IDK what else to add?
My point is, the Sith may not be good, but they are far from bloodthirsty beasts who kill for the sake of it, and the movies are being told from the rebel POV. I believe I have read something about the movies existing IC and they are, yes, nothing but rebel propaganda.
The reason they are portrayed as monsters in books and games is because of the reason I have stated before, lazy writing and unwillingness to delve deeper into the Sith way of life. Why would the writers do it, anyway? The want a monster, not a sympathetic villain.
Teraside
New Member
Sith in the idea of choice, Your own path, your recognition of ideals and purpose. The Sith; vary between the Side that forms the Light, and the Ideals and Purpose for Power at an unlimited feats, near Infinite myth, towards a way of defining a choiceful path.
"Is the Dark Side more powerful"?
It's mocked so dearly between good and evil. much can be explained by not a way of Dark or Light, that is Vivid, and it's not just the Dark Lords or Jedi Councilors, they spread between, observed and opinionated between experience and gruteny.
Including in the Sith. Remarkably, We all agree, ideal, paths and destiny, purpose, and resourcefulness
"What makes a Sith a Sith?"
Plan of action, integrity, attention and complete passion.
"As a Sith, I would..."
Not learn "Magic and Spells, Alchemy and Following of a Master". I would Rise, from the Dark Side, Fully focused on Power and inrulement, for Conquest and Leadership.
Not to Rule the Sith, or the Galaxy; persay.
But to Rule, for I am Sith.
"Is the Dark Side more powerful"?
It's mocked so dearly between good and evil. much can be explained by not a way of Dark or Light, that is Vivid, and it's not just the Dark Lords or Jedi Councilors, they spread between, observed and opinionated between experience and gruteny.
Including in the Sith. Remarkably, We all agree, ideal, paths and destiny, purpose, and resourcefulness
"What makes a Sith a Sith?"
Plan of action, integrity, attention and complete passion.
"As a Sith, I would..."
Not learn "Magic and Spells, Alchemy and Following of a Master". I would Rise, from the Dark Side, Fully focused on Power and inrulement, for Conquest and Leadership.
Not to Rule the Sith, or the Galaxy; persay.
But to Rule, for I am Sith.
VlPER
Victory is mine!
[member="Darth Veles"] Lol ya I was surprised when so many just wanted to be evil stupid. Haha
As for the Sith ruling in peace...erm...peace.? You mean as long as you were human right? Because palpatine had set up an extremely xenophobic empire. If you weren't human, you were treated as a second class citizen, at best! Palpatine himself said he built the death star to keep the other systems "in line" through fear. This was also confirmed by what's his face? That general who's name escapes me. And do you really think that general started blowing up important planets like alderaan without palpatines consent?
There was also outright slavery under palpatine in some places. Admittedly I'll have to look up the source. But the reason the rebellion took hold was because of how many people were unhappy under Sith rule.
Don't fool yourself into thinking palpatine and by extension the Sith were ruling over a happy Utopia and those pesky rebels had to muck it all up. Lol
Also I hear constantly the complaining about how Jedi committed genocide. But nobody on the Sith side of the fence mentions the obliteration of the order. All of those Jedi murdered could have easily been stunned and taken prisoner instead of being executed.
Anyway, as I said. I agree that Sith in the real world could be all over the good and evil board. Same for Jedi.
As for the Sith ruling in peace...erm...peace.? You mean as long as you were human right? Because palpatine had set up an extremely xenophobic empire. If you weren't human, you were treated as a second class citizen, at best! Palpatine himself said he built the death star to keep the other systems "in line" through fear. This was also confirmed by what's his face? That general who's name escapes me. And do you really think that general started blowing up important planets like alderaan without palpatines consent?
There was also outright slavery under palpatine in some places. Admittedly I'll have to look up the source. But the reason the rebellion took hold was because of how many people were unhappy under Sith rule.
Don't fool yourself into thinking palpatine and by extension the Sith were ruling over a happy Utopia and those pesky rebels had to muck it all up. Lol
Also I hear constantly the complaining about how Jedi committed genocide. But nobody on the Sith side of the fence mentions the obliteration of the order. All of those Jedi murdered could have easily been stunned and taken prisoner instead of being executed.
Anyway, as I said. I agree that Sith in the real world could be all over the good and evil board. Same for Jedi.
Darth Veles
Sweet Avreet
[member="VlPER"]
This is getting pretty off topic and maybe we should take it to PMs if you want... but the Empire was not xenophobic!
As with the Sith themselves, that is a product of books making the Imperials as evil as possible. Some may argue there were no aliens in the Empire in the movies, but they forget there were no aliens among rebels either until the sixth episode, and even then, Lucas thought about having them replaced by humans as well.
This is getting pretty off topic and maybe we should take it to PMs if you want... but the Empire was not xenophobic!
As with the Sith themselves, that is a product of books making the Imperials as evil as possible. Some may argue there were no aliens in the Empire in the movies, but they forget there were no aliens among rebels either until the sixth episode, and even then, Lucas thought about having them replaced by humans as well.
Sarge Potteiger
Emotional Damage
What are Sith?
What they've always been - the bad guys.
What they've always been - the bad guys.
Soliath Devin Talith
Family Man
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.Sarge Potteiger said:
Darth Morgoth
Lord Of War
[member="VlPER"]
*Looks at Vader* Sith who became one only because he wanted to save his love. TRUE SITH, who inhabit the star wars codes, are people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, the end justify the means. WHAT YOU are talking about are sith who have let the darkside consume them who have let it drive them insane.
Anyways
POWER TO THE PUREBLOODS THE ONLY TRUE SITH
*Looks at Vader* Sith who became one only because he wanted to save his love. TRUE SITH, who inhabit the star wars codes, are people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, the end justify the means. WHAT YOU are talking about are sith who have let the darkside consume them who have let it drive them insane.
Anyways
POWER TO THE PUREBLOODS THE ONLY TRUE SITH
Malachite the Shoki
Not a Holonet Browser
[member="VlPER"] [member="Darth Veles"]
I probably played through the expansion farther than you, Veles, and Makeb is all about either saving the planet from destruction at the hands of the Hutts (Lightside), or still saving (albeit after killing a bunch of them) most of the population of the planet, and still serving the Empire well (Darkside).
The fact that the story there is factional, rather than class-based, is irrelevant. Just the fact that a Sith is able to spare people when it is reasonable or useful to do so shows a great deal of respect, and by that logic, I say there are three types of Sith:
1, The Pragmatist: Only killing when it is useful, not immediately plotting to advance. A truly pragmatic Sith would use both sides of the Force, and would have at least a small bit of respect for their master, and for people too, when it is useful. (Example: Darth Marr, Darth Malgus)
2, The Berserker: This is the kind of Sith that sticks in people's minds, because they are the pawns of the other two categories. With only a couple of exceptions, your stereotypical murderous, evil, organ-eating Sith does not actually advance past a Knight/Warrior rank, simply because they don't have the foresight or non-combat ability to do so. (Example: Darth Vader, Starkiller)
3, The 'I-have-no-name-for-this-kind-of-Sith': Usually rogues, this kind of Sith tend to only kill when it is necessary, but actually have a greater understanding of the Force, because they study the galaxy as a whole, and make allies and enemies almost everywhere they go. When one of these finally comes to power, they might get really corrupted, or they might actually make their territory better. (Example: Palpantine, Count Dooku)
I probably played through the expansion farther than you, Veles, and Makeb is all about either saving the planet from destruction at the hands of the Hutts (Lightside), or still saving (albeit after killing a bunch of them) most of the population of the planet, and still serving the Empire well (Darkside).
The fact that the story there is factional, rather than class-based, is irrelevant. Just the fact that a Sith is able to spare people when it is reasonable or useful to do so shows a great deal of respect, and by that logic, I say there are three types of Sith:
1, The Pragmatist: Only killing when it is useful, not immediately plotting to advance. A truly pragmatic Sith would use both sides of the Force, and would have at least a small bit of respect for their master, and for people too, when it is useful. (Example: Darth Marr, Darth Malgus)
2, The Berserker: This is the kind of Sith that sticks in people's minds, because they are the pawns of the other two categories. With only a couple of exceptions, your stereotypical murderous, evil, organ-eating Sith does not actually advance past a Knight/Warrior rank, simply because they don't have the foresight or non-combat ability to do so. (Example: Darth Vader, Starkiller)
3, The 'I-have-no-name-for-this-kind-of-Sith': Usually rogues, this kind of Sith tend to only kill when it is necessary, but actually have a greater understanding of the Force, because they study the galaxy as a whole, and make allies and enemies almost everywhere they go. When one of these finally comes to power, they might get really corrupted, or they might actually make their territory better. (Example: Palpantine, Count Dooku)
THE UNDEFEATED
What are sith to me?
Darth Vader...
Darth Vader...
Bucky
To me, Sith are a snack.