What we need for successful invasions

[Ali Hadrix]

#12 is the main reason I have stayed out of invasions. I post when I have a story to write, not on a timetable. Sometimes that means I post once a day for three days, and sometimes not at all for two weeks.

I'd love to participate in an invasion, but I'm not going to sacrifice the quality of my writing to do so. When I post, it should not only be to increase that number underneath my name, or push towards some arbitrary threshold, but to advance my character first and foremost, and secondarily to advance the story.

Maybe someday a faction on Chaos will host a 'slow-mo' invasion that will be ripe for people like me. Until then, I have little motivation to join one, as much as I'd love to for added participation and activity.

I feel the issue in this circumstance is a limited view of what story and character development are. Simply because you are advancing your character's exploits through combat instead of through emotional or ideological obstacles and situations, does not mean you are "sacrificing the quality of your writing."

I feel this sacrifice only takes place when you limit yourself to one style of writing. Having personal experience with combat, I can assure you there is little time for anything but combat (let alone character development), so our invasions reflecting this ought not be seen as a weakness, but as simply another aspect of our writing.

It is only when you seek to advance your character solely through combat, or require that every experience be written in a similar manner, that you are sacrificing the quality of your work.

I'll try to help with the Jedi Master part.

That would be wonderful. Keep in mind: "Training threads" offer no inherent value to our writers and their characters. Characters are advanced through their experience, and training does not have to take place in a Nerfed environment (meaning not real). Training can be referenced, inferred to, or implied, as long as the real story you are writing has value in itself.
Training threads are boring, which is why I do not write them. And when I do, I make them about something other than the training itself.

I think a lot of the OOC problems with the landing portion (including OS's complaint about the difficultly of following all of those posts) could be handled by changing the base rules about unit allocation. I'd suggest just giving a set number of "points" available to spend on units for an entire army, irregardless of player activity in the landing objective. In other words, the Republic army could field 5000 points, just as the OS army could field 5000 points.

In other words, asset location would work like fleeting currently does. Units wouldn't mysteriously disappear if their writer's did, which would give the battle a bit more consistency than Ord Mirit. Characters could still play a key role in giving their landing units an edge (just as they do in fleeting), but things wouldn't completely collapse if they weren't able to make a post, or if they quit, etc. In addition, for both the OS and GR side, it would free up writers who really want to do PVP rather than feel obligated to show up at a landing battle so that their side wouldn't outnumbered. With fewer writers then, it would be easier to keep track of the battle, make sure that everyone's on the same page (and thus keep drama down), and keep posting in a somewhat timely manner.

I like everything you have said there. Let's make sure we fight for that in our next invasion, which should hopefully be soon?

[member="Ali Hadrix"]

As a Senior ranking enlisted soldier, I can most definitely help combat the Yuuzhan Vong technology.

That would be much appreciated. Could you draw up a list of technologies we should be most concerned about countering, and provide suggestions for them?

Coming from someone that's been a part of the One Sith and the Republic's race to defeat the Sith Empire, here's a few of my thoughts.


I believe this is actually the most important thing on whether or not a Faction wins an Invasion. It's not so much a question of the amount of people, but more of the activity of the people participating.

For the most part, my accomplices and I managed to get the One Sith and Republic motivated to participated in Invasions by setting a clear goal and essentially branding it. The Faction was dedicated to that singular, well known goal - everything else became secondary and anything inhibiting it was discarded or changed so that it wouldn't. This was done out-of-character so that our time in roleplays could be dedicated to the main goal. This pretty much meant dedicated solely to Invasions once the war was underway.

We also thoroughly avoided as many extra rules on Invasions as possible. The more people are allowed to do as they wish, the more likely they are to participate. Plus, without spending a lot of time on the Rules and getting a large amount of feedback from a mountain of people, they're more likely to create exploitable situations than stop exploits.

Can you give me a detailed example of what you mean? I like where you're going with this.

To piggy back on Sabena's final paragraph. When you emphasize rules at the beginning of an invasion, you make the rules a focus of the invasion. It makes the invasion more about rules and trying to find ways to manipulate a victory due to the rules. Without rules you focus more on what happens in the RP rather than forcing measurables to exist.

I disagree that rules themselves create this affect, but feel more that an over reliance on them does. Some rules are necessary, though the majority of issues should be handled between the invasion's leaders, which is why I suggested the use of three writers leading their objectives/forces/other writers in these invasions.

I also think that having time limits on threads is a bad idea. Reason being is that when you set an artificial ending point it 1) puts an emphasis on activity at the very end (somewhat always true, but when you set a limit you can make pushes to influence an ending in a particular way more easily) 2) it does not allow for the story to end 3) necessitates rules to likely be what is required to determine the win. For instance: when reading the ending of the last Invasion many people came into the thread and were like "well the fights kind of just started or in the middle sooo draw I guess?" or they would concede some minor injury as a loss because they "took more damage." This is problematic because of obvious reasons, that draw could have been a win (or a loss) if time had gone by and a minor injury might have been insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Also, just because, let us say, that the Sith had a lot of 1v1 victories in an insignificant field it would not mean that they necessarily would win if the Republic had more strategically valuable victories.

I like what you have to say here. I did not like the time limits we had placed on Ord Mirit; without them we would have routed the OS force, which is what we were poised to do before they ceased responding 2-3 days out from the end of the invasion (which harkens back to your first point about manipulating the OOC to pull off a victory, so cheers to that).
I dislike time limits, at least restrictive ones. A 4 week limit for an invasion I can deal with gladly, though I feel that everything, as always, should be up for alteration based on the current situation and the thoughts and feelings of the writers and their leadership. We should have rules, and objectives, but we should be comfortable changing them, or allowing them to change.

Now, to that last point. I know people like to make certain places or set up objectives to start with before the thread. Those are not bad from a strategic planning standpoint, however, they should not be objectives that are set up in rules as a victory condition. Reason being, perhaps during the scope of a thread something arises that makes another objective appear. This is something I used to love doing when I RP'd on another board. I would try and wait to join a thread for a few days, see the lay of the land, and then look for an area that is being neglected but reasonably significant and go for it. One advantage of this is that sometimes you will fall through the cracks and you can solo an objective, and if you're good a pretty big one at that (once became king of Naboo as a Sith in a thread where the Jedi were winning. Basically ended that thread). And if you are opposed, that's awesome because it spreads your opponents out more too.

Objectives are a guiding point for determining victory/defeat. They are a necessity in this. However, placing time limits on objectives such as "destroy the enemy force" strips the attacker's abilities to complete their objectives as long as the defenders keep moving, or lessen their damage intake, etc, which is what we've seen the Sith do in the past.
Having an objective or multiple objectives does not prevent the story/battle from changing, and priorities from re-ording themselves, but it does provide a structured environment for those changes to occur within.

2. Organization - We have sometimes had a lack of organization within our objectives. I think it would make sense in the future to have a member "assigned" to "lead" an objective. I think this makes sense, especially in NPC/Fleeting objectives. With regards to PvP, it should be more free-flowing, but perhaps an OOC leader to help coordinate.

I noticed that having objectives helped greatly at Ord Mirit.

3. Rules - I agree with a number of things proposed above. Rules happen with invasions, they have to. Invasions, while they should be about writing, end up being about winning. Without rules helping to govern things on both sides, you will end up with abuse. It is unavoidable.

Rules allow for abuse. They inherently encourage trying to manipulate the field. Both side looks for ways to make the rules bend and work for them. The most simple and elegant rule and also the most fair is saying that the thread is fundamentally about PvP. This mitigates NPC shenanigans, as stupid posts like summoning a disease filled sarlaac sith spawn to insta-gib an entire base are instantly able to be told just what they are. While some aspect of allowance of PvE objective relevance still exists, it makes it very easy to just say "no, what you did was absurd."

Kian is right on this one. It's not rules that encourage abuse, it's the concept of victory/defeat. The only way to eliminate or lessen this is to remove the determination of outcome as malleable by the events and writers of the battle itself by predetermining victory with a coin-flip or some other objective means. That at least works for NPC battles, which I do not think we should be eliminating. My character Ali is an intel operative, but she's also a Mandalorian-raised soldier, and fighting in major conflicts is very much a part of who she is. Determining that she can only be fielded in PvP battles limits that scope too narrowly.

4. Who we are? - We are the good guys. We are "classy." This I feel has hurt us. I'm not advocating that we stop acting "classy" but I am saying that we should have a discussion about who we want to be as a faction. I have, for some time, felt that on average our faction members are more willing to give damage than our opponents are to take it. Again, this is on average, there are always outliers on both sides. I feel that those who "win" in PvPs and in Invasions are those who are willing to fight dirty. So the question becomes do we want to be a faction that wins but losses sight of who we are, or do we want to stay true to our classiness and have a slightly more uphill struggle.

Actually...I don't see the GR as "the good guys." Consider what governments and societies are made of: People.
Consider who we write: More often than naught, the best of the best.

The rest of our politicians, civilians, soldiers, etc, are just regular people, influenced by the societies of their upbringing and bearing the needs and expectations of any other soul in the Galaxy.

These are not good, people. They're not evil people, but they're willing to cheat, steal, kill, lie, betray, falsify, or do any number of less than reputable things in order to survive and protect and provide for themselves and their loved ones. Some of them are straight scum bags that end up in government, public service or the military. Some of them are virtuous, who get jobs working with non-profit organizations in the hopes that they'll finally help resolve a water shortage on Mygeeto, or end civil war between tribes of Sand People on Tatooine.
The rest of them fit in between, but we are not inherently virtuous, and we should not see the Galactic Republic in such a light.
Kian Karr may be a wise, compassionate Jedi, but Ger Kaldesh might have grown up in a rough neighbourhood just a few levels up from the Coruscant Underworld, with a father addicted to spice and a mother who never actually wanted kids and lived to gamble. Maybe Ger joins the military and turns out alright with some structure and an education paid for by the government, but maybe he turns down the same spice addicted road as his father, and ends up knocking up some girl he met in a dive bar down the road from where he quit school as a teenager, beats his kids and steals every once and a while to pay the rent.

We can't view our faction as virtuous simply because our characters tend to be. We can't hold our masses to expectations that exceed their means. We should, however, expect soldiers to loot bodies now and again, shoot civilians, launch preemptive attacks...you know: fight dirty.

Think of the myriad military leaders we have running this joint, that aren't our characters. They can't all be like us, that's too boring! They have to be average folk, a scum bag here, a determined victor there, insecure about defeat because his father never gave him the validation he needed.

We can't see our faction as Two Dimensional, because its people are not. And it's a strength to avoid this, because it allows our faction to remain malleable, adaptable. That can be our greatest strength.

Classy? Ger Kaldesh isn't classy, he's just trying to get by. And just like Kaldesh, if Ali Hadrix has to shoot through a civilian to kill a Sith Lord, she'd do it in a heart beat. War is about winning, and our characters' values can't necessarily be our armies' values too.

Speaking only from my experience, I can tell you that the complexity of these events is a major problem. I volunteered to be involved, but once I reviewed the thread, I knew there was no way I would be able to jump in since I had a difficult time following all the posts, each with special formatting, and maps, and videos, and headers, and other assorted folderol. That's perfectly fine -- I'm pleased if you're all pleased -- but the complexity is a major barrier to entry for people who would otherwise.

I know that it's perhaps necessary to establish things like maps and coordinates and whatnot to avoid whining down the line, but it will prevent people from feeling that they can be involved, particularly if they join after the thread has already gotten under way.

I have not found formatting to be too complex, there seems to be a fairly commonly used template employed that requires only basic information any writer should have on hand.
As for as the inclusion of videos and music and all sorts of extra things...I have found that tedious and annoying, never sure of sorting through a writer's spoiler headers will provide me with anything of value. I've seen song lyrics included in posts that take up more reading space than the posts themselves.
On the other hand, however, this reflects the individual writer and their own style. We should not be seeking to limit that, as long as everything is neat and orderly and easily read.

 

[Sabena Shai]

Can you give me a detailed example of what you mean? I like where you're going with this.

For the rigid faction goal, the One Sith was all about SERVE THE DARK LORD, TAKE CORUSCANT, DESTROY THE REPUBLIC.

We didn't do any roleplays to decide this. It was already decided by Aela at the time, Darth Isolda, and myself. People that joined the Faction before it became public had this faction goal shoved into their faces - where they had to accept it. Everything beyond that was secondary and not top priority to the faction - hence why it may seem even now that the One Sith appears the only care about destroying the Republic. It's cause we made it the one of the few things the faction should cared about.

It's also possible to do something similar to the Republic. Before the One Sith was another Sith faction by the name of the Sith Empire. After a total replacement of the Republic leadership then, the new leadership pushed forward the new goal of the Republic: DESTROY THE SITH EMPIRE.

There was no Senate meeting to decide this. It was what was going to be done if one was to be a part of the Republic. The Senate actually got neutered when it became apparent several Senate characters were trying to use it to block war or cause shenanigans. And from that point, the Republic became this raging force that manage to spur its members to actually destroying the Sith Empire (thus the reason why it's no longer on the map). The Republic's advances only sputtered out after then because - once the Sith Empire was gone - they then didn't have a single-minded goal. The leadership then decided to quit since they did what they had set out to do, and thus a single-minded goal never got created again.

In conclusion, it doesn't feel to me as if the current Republic has any single-minded goal. The leadership isn't chanting something such as, "RETAKE CORUSCANT" or "DESTROY THE ONE SITH" or whatever. And while it is something that takes away a little bit of Faction ownership from the general membership, it is something that has proven itself useful to the One Sith and Republic of old when it comes to Invasions.

 

[Jerek Zenduu]

I feel the issue in this circumstance is a limited view of what story and character development are. Simply because you are advancing your character's exploits through combat instead of through emotional or ideological obstacles and situations, does not mean you are "sacrificing the quality of your writing."

I feel this sacrifice only takes place when you limit yourself to one style of writing. Having personal experience with combat, I can assure you there is little time for anything but combat (let alone character development), so our invasions reflecting this ought not be seen as a weakness, but as simply another aspect of our writing.

It is only when you seek to advance your character solely through combat, or require that every experience be written in a similar manner, that you are sacrificing the quality of your work.

What?

I'm talking about writing on a time table. You're talking about writing combat. I don't know where you got that from, but writing under a significant deadline that invasions require certainly can and does "sacrifice the quality of my writing."

If you've got a beef with how I write, please address it to me privately or in a feedback thread if I ever post one, certainly not in a public forum. You asked for feedback on how to approach the next invasion, and I gave you feedback on the 24 hour rule you cited. That's all we're talking about.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

[member=Sabena Shai]: Okay, I better understand what you were getting at, and I agree. Setting goals that the general population of the faction can focus on is beneficial to us all, as long as we always have a goal to aim for.

[member=Jerek Zenduu]: I replied objectively to your statement, and have not expressed having any issue with your writing style, so I fail to understand why you have reacted as if I do.

"Sometimes that means I post once a day for three days, and sometimes not at all for two weeks."

It is entirely unfair to expect writers to have to wait for so long for response posts. Working together means we must accommodate one another, not one must bend or break for another. While a 24 hour rule may certainly be too little time to allow for responses, even for a two week event, having a limitation isn't a bad thing inherently.

"When I post, it should not only be to increase that number underneath my name, or push towards some arbitrary threshold, but to advance my character first and foremost, and secondarily to advance the story."

I have yet to meet a single writer that worries more about their posting number than the quality of their work.

"Maybe someday a faction on Chaos will host a 'slow-mo' invasion that will be ripe for people like me. Until then, I have little motivation to join one, as much as I'd love to for added participation and activity."

Perhaps, it's not a terrible idea. However, as I stated before, it's every bit as unfair to other writers to expect them to wait an indefinite period of time as it perhaps is to expect them to be able to respond as quickly as 24 hours. Of course, parties in agreement to such a practice are free to adhere to whatever structure they choose. But I am not concerned with outliers, I am concerned with the general population.

"I don't know where you got that from, but writing under a significant deadline that invasions require certainly can and does 'sacrifice the quality of my writing.' "

It's up to you how you see time limitations, though I have seen wonderfully produced work, and have produced plenty of stellar work myself, regardless of such regulations.

 

[Jerek Zenduu]

[member="Ali Hadrix"]

Now we're talking about the same thing.

And indeed, my whole point was that I have not felt comfortable joining an invasion for just the reasons you listed. That keeps me from participating and adding to the number of people available for an invasion.

I could probably do one in which the event time was doubled, and responses were allowed within a three day, instead of 24 hour, period.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

[member=Jerek Zenduu]: That's close to what I had in mind, an extension of both time hacks. We ought to make sure we negotiate for that so writers like yourself will be able to participate.

 

[Strider Garon]

All you need is a well placed Mando to win ya a invasion. I so happen to know a few! *Grins*

 

[Nikolas Faselli]

All you need is a well placed Mando to win ya a invasion. I so happen to know a few! *Grins*

Then where the kark have you been with your Mandos?

 

[Strider Garon]

[member="The Squirrely"] on walk a bout, but have returned now.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Skirmishing with the Republic, most of the mandos have been....

 

[Strider Garon]

A small chunk of them have and the other chunk disagree with the action.

 

[Faith Organa]

We might want to do a thread about this, either training our soldiers specifically to deal with Vong, or to field test some new anti-Vong technology.

To the Vong technology standpoint, I did develop a new ground attack missile that disperses plank gas & sparkbee honey mist (a common Vong allergy) as well as a mobile shield generator (to protect our troops from future artillery barrages). I probably will also be submitting an anti-dovin basal weaponry based on the canon ball-bearing missile.

Is there anything else we need?

There are vong things on alderaan you can use it as a training ground

 

[Oddball]

Gonna put this out here. But the Rebel Alliance is the only light side faction to win an invasion in like I a year I think. And honestly I think it's because a lot of the writers who play for the other team are more winning oriented. I think I'd rather lose invasions than to compromise integrity of telling an actual story and being a good writer.

 

[Mantic Dorn]

I was spooked to join in because I don't get the technology stuff around vong.
Its star wars. blasters and sabers is all I understand
But I am getting there.

Sadly I have had no luck in finding a master to teach me, perhaps that's partly the problem with us not having masters, we get stuck on padawan level and then moves on to the silver jedi after a awhile?

 

[Tyl Ro]

[member="Mantic Dorn"] and other Paddies waiting for a Master character:

1. Do I need a Master?

No. I reached Knight level without one and know many who did. If you’d like to RP a Master and Padawan relationship then that’s wonderful – but in no way essential for progression.

There might not be writers with Master-levels characters to help you out. The truth is there are probably more Padawans than the current load of Knights and Masters can handle. But you can still progress as a Jedi without having those writers available! If you feel that a Master is quintessential to becoming a Jedi Knight, perhaps creating an NPC Master would suit your needs.

We don't want anyone to feel excluded. Even without a Master, you should feel welcome to hop into and start threads with anyone in the faction at any "level." Just keep it classy

 

[Mantic Dorn]

[member="Tyl Ro"]

Yes, I understand. I'll progress on my own. It would have been more fun with a pc master relation, thats the reason. But I am figuring this out regardless.

 

[Tyl Ro]

[member="Mantic Dorn"]

Naturally. And there's always the possibility that a writer will come along at some point in the future and take up the mantle as a PC Master character to your Padawan. Just don't let that dissuade you from the here and now

And, keep in mind, when you progress to becoming a Knight, that's one more possible teacher for the future Paddies who join the Order. Thus, such would enable a greater volume of new Force users to be taught and guarantee that they will have a PC Master with whom to write. The more people that leave the Order halfway through, the more likely those new Padawan characters will also transfer out.

 

[Travot Ravenna]

Sadly I have had no luck in finding a master to teach me, perhaps that's partly the problem with us not having masters, we get stuck on padawan level and then moves on to the silver jedi after a awhile?

I pretty much do what Tyl Ro suggested, which is to have a NPC master. But in conjunction with that, I try and roleplay with my fellow padawans to get experience, and join in on faction training threads. That way I can get experience with master-level characters and their writers, even if I'm not able to have one of my own.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

[member=Oddball] Story integrity and victory are in no way mutually exclusive. With the exception of posting time requirements, none of the suggestions I've put forth require that story/writing integrity be compromised.

[member=Mantic Dorn] Keep in mind what Tyl said, she put it brilliantly. I'm working on pushing my Jedi character through to Mastery as swiftly as possible, without neglecting the development of the character herself. If you'd rather not have to do it all alone, but don't want to wait on a full time Master, perhaps you can join in with myself and Corvus from time to time? Like a sort of joint tutorship.

 

[Jerek Zenduu]

Keep in mind what Tyl said, she put it brilliantly.

Tyl is played by [member="Jorj Kell"] whose gender is decidedly male.