What we need for successful invasions

[Natasi Fortan]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]
Finally! Someone who gets me!

Don't let anyone tell you you're not good at convincing people. You brought me around, despite my previous qualms.

We're lucky to have someone with a foot in both camps who can communicate their needs, especially since it's not like we can just walk away from them. They're going to be with us whether we accede to their demands or not, so we might as well play along.

 

[Onrai]

If it's anti-Vong tech you need, just let me know what you need and I can solve that issue.

Honestly, I don't participate in invasions because of the following reasons:

1: Threads go WAY too fast. Go to sleep, wake up the next morning, and find ten more pages tacked on.

2: Manipulation. I don't like getting played OOC to better the cause of the opposing faction IC. With several factions on the forum, and my interactions with their members on both a group and independent basis, they haven't proven themselves the straightest of people.

3: Whatever muse I may or may not have immediately gets drained away by the constant effort shoved into the thread, which may carry on for weeks.

The others raise excellent points as well.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

2: Manipulation. I don't like getting played OOC to better the cause of the opposing faction IC. With several factions on the forum, and my interactions with their members on both a group and independent basis, they haven't proven themselves the straightest of people.

This is a figment of your imagination. The other writers would NEVER manipulate us OOCly, would never try to get the upper hand except through IC actions. Please stop causing negativity by making observations like this. Remember, invasions aren't about winning. Well, they're not about us winning. Our role is to provide a good story, and if we continue to make a fuss like this, no one will want to write with us. Do we want that, as a faction? I certainly don't.

 

[Mantic Dorn]

[member="Enigma"]
I for one dont get the Vong tech at all. OOC that is. Was it in some magazine or what? It seem to take way to much space imo from classical SW. But then I am old and grumpy, something I realize and I am trying to figure it out. But dang, all those strange terms.
Mantic: "I swing my saber."
Vongsith: "Then my Uruzkhiel (embedded with 13 links) eats your left foot."
Mantic: "right..."

Just kidding but I dont get it

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]
Nah, I think you are wrong. GR members are very good to RP with and they most certainly gives the opponent a fair chance of winning over them. The GR writers are good but I think the problem [member="Ali Hadrix"] is adressing is that at the same time everyone really want the GR around as a major faction. The GR simply need to "win" something soon or folk will be afraid it will be destroyed in the long run. From where I am sitting the GR has a very nice rep in chaos in general.
And yes, evil is "easier to promote" - everyone likes to be bad. Like Tefka mentioned we need to make peeps stay interested to invest the effort of staying through an invasion, which frankly are a bit pressed in time.

 

[Onrai]

This is a figment of your imagination. The other writers would NEVER manipulate us OOCly, would never try to get the upper hand except through IC actions. Please stop causing negativity by making observations like this. Remember, invasions aren't about winning. Well, they're not about us winning. Our role is to provide a good story, and if we continue to make a fuss like this, no one will want to write with us. Do we want that, as a faction? I certainly don't.

Then please explain why the Republic, instead of actually fighting back against the One Sith when the faction was initially formed, was told by the administration that the loss of territory(eg. Coruscant, Typhon, etc) they would suffer was pre-planned. And yes, they would. To claim they would "NEVER manipulate us OOCly" is ignorance of the highest caliber. You can claim invasions aren't about winning, that they're all about story - we can have the best stories on the site in those threads, but if we lose every single invasion until the One Sith subsume our territory and we cease existing on the map, then it doesn't matter. As is, the Republic hasn't been able to pick up any sort of lost ground in a good while against the One Sith, and that's really turning people off from what I can see.

[member="Mantic Dorn"]

tl;dr certain people in the One Sith had an obsession with doing things the same way as the original OS(Krayt's Empire) by including Vongtech in basically everything from starships to lightsabers. It's ridiculous imo, but hey, what can you expect?

 

[Cecily Demici]

[member="Enigma"] [member="Mantic Dorn"] [member="Aurelia Volcata"]
On the points raised by Enigma about the GR writing good stories:

Perhaps the question that we need to ask here is why doesn't the invasion system better reward those Factions that write the best stories?

Also, why do our best stories have to be losses?

On another note, I believe that the notion of pre-planned territory loss was dispelled in another thread. I'll find the exact post, but it was made clear that territory loss was never pre-determined (at least as far as Coruscant goes.)

 

[Onrai]

I stand corrected on the pre-planned loss, though that expanded into this through my talks with a founding member of the One Sith as to what a problem of ours appears to be.

[2:08:19 PM] Markus (Fusion): Quick question.
[2:10:09 PM] [OS MEMBER]: Shoot.
[2:11:00 PM] Markus (Fusion): Was the loss of Coruscant and other Republic territory at the hands of the One Sith pre-planned, ala the Sith Empire's fall, or was it merely that the Republic failed to competently fight back in invasions?
[2:11:12 PM] [OS MEMBER]: The Republic sucked ass at holding us back.
[2:11:22 PM] [OS MEMBER]: Plus we had the element of surprise and overwhelming numbers
[2:11:30 PM] [OS MEMBER]: Plus a better drive when fighting.
[2:11:33 PM] Markus (Fusion): I was talking from an OOC perspective.
[2:11:37 PM][OS MEMBER]: OOC? Naw.
[2:11:53 PM] [OS MEMBER]: Even OOC
[2:12:02 PM] [OS MEMBER]: We have a better drive than they do
[2:12:07 PM] [OS MEMBER]: They're falling apart at the seams
[2:12:12 PM] [OS MEMBER]: Bickering senselessly
[2:12:16 PM] [OS MEMBER]: Tearing their memberbase apart
[2:12:28 PM] [OS MEMBER]: We don't have that kind of internal friction

 

[Natasi Fortan]

[member="Enigma"]
I for one dont get the Vong tech at all. OOC that is. Was it in some magazine or what? It seem to take way to much space imo from classical SW. But then I am old and grumpy, something I realize and I am trying to figure it out. But dang, all those strange terms.
Mantic: "I swing my saber."
Vongsith: "Then my Uruzkhiel (embedded with 13 links) eats your left foot."
Mantic: "right..."

Just kidding but I dont get it

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]
Nah, I think you are wrong. GR members are very good to RP with and they most certainly gives the opponent a fair chance of winning over them. The GR writers are good but I think the problem [member="Ali Hadrix"] is adressing is that at the same time everyone really want the GR around as a major faction. The GR simply need to "win" something soon or folk will be afraid it will be destroyed in the long run. From where I am sitting the GR has a very nice rep in chaos in general.
And yes, evil is "easier to promote" - everyone likes to be bad. Like Tefka mentioned we need to make peeps stay interested to invest the effort of staying through an invasion, which frankly are a bit pressed in time.

No offense, but I think you're looking at this the wrong way. What is "winning" anyway? The general consensus is that "winning" is continuing to write. Since the Sith generally refuse to back down, it falls upon us to do so. No one WANTS to lose, but if someone has to and if one side won't then obviously the other side must. And the benefit to us is that as long as we're willing to do it, we'll always have people who want to write with us, so we all win, right?

At any rate, the message from our staff is loud and clear. This is our policy, agreed or not. If there is some point where we are at risk of losing our major faction status, obviously OneSith/FA betters will collaborate on to make things right. It doesn't serve the OneSith to lose the GR as an IC adversary, especially considering this new-found feeling of detente and conciliation, so I believe they will be willing to relent a little.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

Then please explain why the Republic, instead of actually fighting back against the One Sith when the faction was initially formed, was told by the administration that the loss of territory(eg. Coruscant, Typhon, etc) they would suffer was pre-planned. And yes, they would. To claim they would "NEVER manipulate us OOCly" is ignorance of the highest caliber. You can claim invasions aren't about winning, that they're all about story - we can have the best stories on the site in those threads, but if we lose every single invasion until the One Sith subsume our territory and we cease existing on the map, then it doesn't matter. As is, the Republic hasn't been able to pick up any sort of lost ground in a good while against the One Sith, and that's really turning people off from what I can see.

[member="Mantic Dorn"]

tl;dr certain people in the One Sith had an obsession with doing things the same way as the original OS(Krayt's Empire) by including Vongtech in basically everything from starships to lightsabers. It's ridiculous imo, but hey, what can you expect?

As [member="Cecily de Demici"] graciously and correctly pointed out, it wasn't pre-planned by the Republic. However that doesn't mean that it wasn't pre-planned. It was pre-planned by the OS in the sense that they decided from the word go that they wouldn't relax their grip under any circumstances. But given the Republic's enlightened and forward-thinking approach to dominions, that decision might as well have been a joint one.

If people are turned off by the GR's constant losing, do we really want such short-sighted people in the faction? Not to sound harsh, but if people can't see the virtue in being the underdog, which is the role that our faction leadership and the OneSith leaders have selected for us, they aren't really going to fit in and will cause OOC friction between our two factions, which is the exact opposite of what we need right now. We need to focus on working together under the terms that exist now, not rocking the boat.

 

[Mantic Dorn]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]

No offence taken at all.

But I do feel that [member="Ali Hadrix"] intent with this thread has been hijacked. She tried to start a discussion on what the GR would require to tell a story in the invasion format where the GR is the winner in the story.

I think we have come to a few conclussions, like that we need to figure out how to keep our writers write the story even when they feel opponents are tiresome ( which happens). I myself got stranded and tired of the recent invasion so I am not without blame.

We also seem to excell in self-criticism. Perhaps a little too much for our own good. I do not think we need to worry mote about no one wanting to RP with us. On the contrary, but we need members to meet the demand of RP all around.

Just my five cents.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]

No offence taken at all.

But I do feel that [member="Ali Hadrix"] intent with this thread has been hijacked. She tried to start a discussion on what the GR would require to tell a story in the invasion format where the GR is the winner in the story.

I think we have come to a few conclussions, like that we need to figure out how to keep our writers write the story even when they feel opponents are tiresome ( which happens). I myself got stranded and tired of the recent invasion so I am not without blame.

We also seem to excell in self-criticism. Perhaps a little too much for our own good. I do not think we need to worry mote about no one wanting to RP with us. On the contrary, but we need members to meet the demand of RP all around.

Just my five cents.

I agree with you to a point, but whether we win isn't really our choice. So the focus should be to make the most of any decision, to win when we are allowed and to lose with dignity the rest of the time.

 

[Mantic Dorn]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]
I dont really follow you.

I can only see how the GR are writing stories where it looses and carries on with dignity.
All complaint is turned inward. Why keep telling us not to complain on the sith. No one is arguing with them or doing anything against the spirit of chaos.
As far as I have seen all that we do is complain on our own effort. Like in this thread.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]
I dont really follow you.

I can only see how the GR are writing stories where it looses and carries on with dignity.
All complaint is turned inward. Why keep telling us not to complain on the sith. No one is arguing with them or doing anything against the spirit of chaos.
As far as I have seen all that we do is complain on our own effort. Like in this thread.

Can you explain your point? I don't follow either but I'd like to.

 

[Mantic Dorn]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"]

I think that what I am trying to say is that the GR members are taking the loosing side of the stories with dignity. Peeps got wind up by the fact that tefka (not tagging him since it serves no purpose other then irritation) and RPjudges payd attention to this thread and suddenly we are all over ourselves about that we need to behave when loosing.

But the thing is, no one is complaining about GR effort on that topic beside its own members. I think that side of this thread got blown out of proportions while we should continue to discuss what sort of stories we want to tell. And yes, it is tiresome to write stories where one constantly loose. The GR is good at taking losses with dignity. Therefore the idea to discuss on how to write in tbe invasion format to shape a story where the GR is the victor is justified, in my own oppinion.

Buuut, I am only reflecting how I have percieved the GR the last couple of months. Prob much more history in hete that I am blissfully unaware of

EDIT - also, I dont think I am coming with anything really new here. Most folk like good stories with multiple possible outcomes and few enjoy ooc drama
I just wanted to see if I could influence the thread to go back to its original intent. I think...

 

[Cecily Demici]

[member="Mantic Dorn"]
Mantic is right. GR members have lately been at greater risk of being attacked and mocked by the vocal minority of toxic members here than they are of having conflict with OS members.

At any rate, I think this topic has become less about actually addressing the issue it was intended to address and has devolved into a very impolite conversation about personal OOC opinions on how to deal with the OS.

We arent going to solve this invasion problem by talking about what we can do OOC to get an edge on another Factoon. If we want to win invasions we need to have a mature conversation about what is going wrong and then address it without using other people as scape goats. If we find that there is no other answer than the OS are dirty dirty cheats, we can address that too without being hateful

On that note, I am recommending that [member="Taeli Raaf"] close this topic.

 

[Jerek Zenduu]

[member="Cecily de Demici"]

For the sake of those who have never joined an invasion for, among other reasons, the perceived OOC animosity towards our opponents, I'd love for this discussion to continue.

Not only to continue to dispel that notion but for a genuine conversation on how the GR can succeed (note: not necessarily win) in the next invasion.

 

[Cecily Demici]

[member="Jerek Zenduu"] , I agree that I would very much like this discussion on invasions to continue. I think it is a valuable conversation to have, but the reason I was recommending it to be closed was because at this point various members have used this as a vehicle to mock others, be openly (or subtly) rude to others, or in general to try to get a rise out of people.

So, if there are members in the GR who genuinely want to get this topic back on track to talk specifically about the point that [member="Ali Hadrix"] originally raised, then I would be happy to retract my recommendation of closure.

However, for members who want to continue to post here only to mock or poke fun at other members or generally communicate in a disrespectful way, I'm not going to allow it. I have been as nice as possible about it, I've even ignored some comments hoping they would go away and they haven't.

So, let this serve as an official warning that if I see any of the behavior described above (mocking, disrespect, bashing others, etc.) I will hide your post and flag it for review by the FA. You are free to disagree with other members all you want, but we need to start looking at ways to do it in a respectful and constructive way, because the kind of behavior described above does nothing but cause rifts in our Faction.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but is a very generalized blanket statement about my position on this issue as a GR moderator.

 

[Taeli Raaf]

To echo what Cecily, I want the faction to have a clear and easy dialogue to make us better. However, what I will not condone is attacking other members and writers. I can't change people having opinions or their minds, but if I see any more attacks on people within the public forums, there will be consequences.

This is meant to be a fun and relaxing place to tell stories and even if we disagree with other members of the community, it is always best to talk with that person first and foremost to figure out a middle ground or to handle the situation.

Consider this the only warning I will give people, please put this thread back on track on discussing how to make invasions go better for our side. Talk about tech and strategy and all those other wonderful things that go into an invasion, but no more attacking other writers.

 

[Onrai]

which is the role that our faction leadership and the OneSith leaders have selected for us

We don't need to be the underdogs. We need to be the equals. Constantly being the loser in every confrontation thus far isn't equality.

At any rate, the message from our staff is loud and clear.

I've talked to the Republic staff, and I don't think I've met any of them that've stated the Republic's goal as a faction is to be an underdog to the One Sith. In fact, equality seems to be what more than most of them are a fan of.

This is our policy, agreed or not.

This does not have to be our policy. It can be changed.

If there is some point where we are at risk of losing our major faction status, obviously OneSith/FA betters will collaborate on to make things right.

If we actually reach a point where we're going minor, then honestly, we have failed as a faction.

 

[Cecily Demici]

All that aside, I did recently, jokingly play with the idea of giving the Jedi a greater role in the Republic in terms of fighting the Sith. I spoke briefly with both [member="Taeli Raaf"] and [member="Corvus Raaf"] about some ideas I had on the subject (I wont be specific because they were just vague ideas.) I think [member="Jerek Zenduu"] and I also very briefly talked about it on Skype.

Anyway, do we think that maybe expanding the military role of the Jedi (specifically when it comes to fighting the Sith) would have any effect on the outcome of invasions?

[member="Ali Hadrix"] [member="Aurelia Volcata"] [member="Enigma"] [member="Tyl Ro"] [member="Mantic Dorn"] You guys have thoughts on that?