Amazon banning the Rebel Flag

[Valiens Nantaris]

And that is the other side of it of course. The only people (besides a miniscule amount) in the South who consider it a part of their heritage and can take pride in it is of course the white population. I cannot imagine many African Americans or Latinos have much pride in it, nor people from non-Anglo backgrounds.

As neither black nor a Southerner, I don’t know for sure, but I’m pretty certain most African Americans do not look kindly on the flag. A flag it may be, bigger issues there certainly are, but I imagine it’s an uncomfortable reminder to many that 155 years ago a war was fought in large part to keep them servile.

 

[Darth Metus]

[member="Rexus Drath"]

My Zabaraka.

*brofist*

 

[Pavor Clauditis]

I respect your opinion. However, I still do not agree that the Battle flag of Northern Virginia is a racist symbol. Look at any image of the Ku Klux Klan from the 1920s, you will find no rebel flags. Only the flags of The United States of America. The slave ships that were picking up the slaves flew the United States flag as well.

The Ku Klux Klan corrupted the meaning of the Rebel battle flag. I believe the United States flag could be offensive as America was founded on slaughtering the Indians. There are also Northern historians who agree that the rebel battle flag is not a racist symbol. Abe Lincoln was also a racist, here are a few of Abe Lincoln's racist quotes...

"I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races."

another racist quote...

" I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.”

Also...

“If I could save the union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race I do because I believe it helps to save the union.”

And...

“But for your race among us there could not be a war, although many men on either side do not care for you one way or another. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoys. It is better for us both to be separated.”

I can provide more racist and offensive quotes from Abe Lincoln if you'd like. Thank you for taking time to read this.

[member="Rexus Drath"]

 

[Natasi Fortan]

And that is the other side of it of course. The only people (besides a miniscule amount) in the South who consider it a part of their heritage and can take pride in it is of course the white population. I cannot imagine many African Americans or Latinos have much pride in it, nor people from non-Anglo backgrounds.

As neither black nor a Southerner, I don’t know for sure, but I’m pretty certain most African Americans do not look kindly on the flag. A flag it may be, bigger issues there certainly are, but I imagine it’s an uncomfortable reminder to many that 155 years ago a war was fought in large part to keep them servile.

Fought largely by illiterate, non-slave-owning farmers who believed they were fighting AGAINST perceived tyranny rather than FOR slavery, which began a long and illustrious history of Southern military valor. Even today, Southern states are over-represented in the armed services.

I'm not defending the flag as a symbol, and I believe there are people who fly it for shock value and to express racism, but I think many more fly it for the "Don't Tread On Me" spirit of the rebel cause, and certainly I refuse to play this game where we pretend that the presence of a flag had anything at all to do with this lunatic's decision to murder nine innocent people.

 

[Arumi Zy]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"] I think you have pinned it pretty well here

 

[Rexus Drath]

[member="Pavor Clauditis"]

I can't even. Okay.

So you do know that black people don't regard Abe Lincoln as the messiah and savior right? That's saved for Lebron James. Listing racist quotes from a time period where racism was the norm doesn't change the fact about the flag and what it stands for and how it's been used through the 1940s and 60s

You can say "oh see black people here's your savior being racist. Why don't you ban the American flag for the murder and rape of millions." Well there's a pretty simple reason why that is. We Live In America, banning our own country's flag is stupid.

You can respectfully disagree, but at the end of the day that flag stands for racism, oppression, and bigotry. And again you can say my family fought for the south and I'm honoring them.

YOUR FAMILY FOUGHT FOR THE RIGHT TO OWN PEOPLE.

*mic drop*

 

[Pavor Clauditis]

Well, one of the first recorded slave owners in the United States was a black man named Anthony Johnson. The Confederate states freed their slaves in 1863, the Union freed them in 1868.

[member="Rexus Drath"]

 

[Rexus Drath]

[member="Pavor Clauditis"]

So let's go to cinéma to help out with this one. In the movie Django unchained there was a scene where black hatred lay on other black people. There was the House Slave, who traditionally was a very Uncle Tom ass dude. Which meant he kissed his owner's butt to stay in his good graces and not be a field slave. Then there was a black slave owner, if you were a black slave owner you were considered to be worse than the white man. You were the devil, hitler, and Stalin rolled up into an evil threesome. So saying that one of the first slave owners was black again doesn't do anything to aid your defense, because LITERALLY EVERY BLACK PERSON HATED THEM.

It's like talking to a wall here. Your flag represents racism, bigotry, hatred, oppression, murder, treason, succession, anti American goals and values, is that really a heritage you are proud of? Can you with a clean conscious say that you are proud to be a part of that? I'm not saying the north was perfect, far freaking from it. But openly supporting something that portrays that is not only bad, it's insulting to me, and to the people who have died because of men and women like them.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Rexus Drath"]
[member="Pavor Clauditis"]

America in the 1860s was profoundly racist by today’s interpretations. No one disputes this. The North was not the bastion of abolitionists many assume, it was a fringe, radical view. Even the best in the North were paternalist and believed they were superior to African Americans.
Abolition was not the war aim at the start of the war, or even until the middle of 1863. The North blundered into abolition as a means to deprive the South of key war labour and material. As the war became more costly, more deadly, radicals gained control, many of them Republicans who were abolitionists as well, and the story went from there.

However, [member="Aurelia Volcata"] makes some good points which highlight how tricky a situation it is. Whilst the leaders of the South unequivocally placed the maintenance of slavery as their key aim, the majority of their soldiers were not slave holders.

It is also absurd to say that the flag itself caused the tragedy of the shooting by itself. Such a damaged person latched onto it, whereas in other countries it might be an IS or Nazi flag. Thus, Amazon’s removal of products was not one of enlightened moralism, but as a reaction to negative press attention which might have resulted.
It’s fair to say that companies rarely do things for ethical or moral reasons until there is a monetary reason to do so. This is the case here, or else they would have removed the flag years ago or left it for sale.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Pavor Clauditis"]
The South never freed its slaves, not in 1863 or 1865. The discussion only came up about abolition in the last days of the Confederacy, and even then it was a step too far. Else, what had they been fighting for?

The Union abolished slavery in 1868, yes, but to do so they had to pass 3 amendments to the Constitution, and it took time to ratify these especially as I said above, the North was as profoundly racist as the South to a great extent.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

I wonder if Amazon will remove the South African rainbow flag in lieu of the murders of thousands of Boer farmers.

Oh wait. That wouldn't fit the Narrative(TM), now would it.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]
Were there to be a massacre of Americans by someone waving it, I dare say it would be. Failing an outrage happening to Americans, it’s not well known enough for a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Pavor Clauditis]

There is a recording of a Confederate veteran speaking of the civil war. Here is one of the things he said...

"The south did not fight for the elevation or extension of slaves." And that he was glad that he "Did not bring up his boys on the system of slavery"

And finally, "...And so, what we fought for was states rights."

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

[member="Rexus Drath"]

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Pavor Clauditis"]
Tell me…what was the state right they were all fighting for? Slavery. That was the only state right which was ever mentioned.
The irony is of course that the Republicans neither had the power or the will to try and tackle the issue in 1860. They never said they were, and the abolitionist camp was rather small.
To abolish slavery would have taken constitutional amendments like it did in 1865-8…but those require 2/3rds of states to ratify and since half the states of the Union were slaveholding it could never have passed.
So the irony is that only by rebelling could the North have ever abolished slavery.

The Southerners of the time were under no illusions as to what the war was about, it was only the Lost Cause which tried to change the game. For instance:

The Mississippi articles of succession:

Spoiler

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Louisiana:

Spoiler

As a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of an­nexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.

Texas:

Spoiler

...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states....

Florida:

Spoiler

At the South, and with our People of course, slavery is the element of all value, and a destruction of that destroys all that is property. This party, now soon to take possession of the powers of the Government, is sectional, irresponsible to us, and driven on by an infuriated fanatical madness that defies all opposition, must inevitably destroy every vestige or right growing out of property in slaves.
Gentlemen, the State of Florida is now a member of the Union under the power of the Government, so to go into the hands of this party.
As we stand our doom is decreed.

And finally, the Vice President of the Confederacy in his Cornerstone Speech:

Spoiler

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

I’m not sure how ambiguous this is….

After the war many changed their views, having lost, but it’s pretty clear that the only right the Southern leaders were concerned about was slavery.

 

[Desmond Verd]

This thread makes me sad.

 

[Gilamar Skirata]

If Amazon doesn't want to sell it and Walmart won't sell it, buy it somewhere else. Like you said, you're in the South I'm sure you could find one at the dollar store if you don't already have one and REALLY want to get one. On a side note, they don't sell Nazi Flags etc. They sell lots of German replicas and I found five actual Nazi swastikas on products everything else I found under swastika was either a book or the symbol in its original intended use. You can also still buy the Mississippi state flag which also makes use of the battle flag and confederate battle flag notebooks are also for sale.

Basically, Amazon sucks at doing these kinds of things and is only falling in because its popular don't take it too hard you can still get your flag somewhere else.

On a side note, the Heritage of the battle flag and the rebel faction it represented is a heritage of betrayal, racism, and slavery. Yes...The Good Ol' USA had it too but at least they tried to get rid of it.

 

[Pavor Clauditis]

Alright, I ain't going to deny it. Leaders in the Confederacy wanted slavery. But I'd like to add...

The North was taxing the living hell out of the south. Also, if Abe Lincoln was not elected, the South probably would have not seceded from the Union. As I stated before, Lincoln was taxing Southerners. I'd also like to add this before I continue, Abe Lincoln had Northern newspaper who criticized his actions shut down and their editors imprisoned. Now, the southerners were debating on leaving the union with polls in each southern state. So, in order to stop the South from seceding, the North invaded the South and started murdering people.

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

 

[Pavor Clauditis]

[member="Gilamar Skirata"]

I actually saw a nazi flag on ebay the other day. You can buy a Nazi SS flag on amazon. Though, I can't seem to find the other things I mentioned except for the Che Guevara shirts and several other things. I'm assuming they removed some of them as the review section was flooded with reviews like "The rebel flag is offensive, but not *Insert product here*"

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Pavor Clauditis"]
That’s not quite an accurate rendition of events.

Remember that it was the Confederacy which fired the first shots and drew the first blood by firing on Fort Sumter.
War is not murder. From either perspective; rebellion or war, the rules of conflict of the time were followed.

The taxation rights of the Federal Government in 1860 were miniscule. Another irony of the war is that it greatly expanded the executive, but especially in the South.
Remember, there were no income taxes at that point, so as shown here, the majority of the miserly Federal income before the war came from property tax and tariffs. But compared with the British Empire of the time, the taxes were tiny compared.

You talk of overreach by Lincoln, and he did indeed act unconstitutionally on many occasions. However in the South the laws passed made forced impressment of goods official state policy, as well as an increased executive power which allowed the President of the CSA to tax his people directly far more than the North could or did before the war.

Also ironically, the CSA did not allow states which had joined to leave…the very policy they argued the North was acting illegally in preventing.

 

[Ellie Mors]

The Ku Klux Klan corrupted the meaning of the Rebel battle flag.

To expressly address this lunacy, because that is what this grasp at straws is:

• The Swastika existed for ten millennia prior to NAZI Germany - or even civilized humanity as we know it. (10,000 B.C)
• The Swastika was a religious symbol which had absolutely nothing to do with Antisemitism, "Aryan Superiority", or any other Nazi ideology.
• The Nazi Party of Pre-World War I Germany adopted the flag, as did many other countries in the west, because of the symbolism and connotations it had to its Hindu and Buddhist uses.
• The flag was twisted by Nazi Germany to be used as a symbol of hate, racism, bigotry, and antisemitism, far from its original intentions and certainly completely unrelated to its religious uses.

So, based on your evaluation of how using the Confederate Battle Flag must be okay because it was "corrupted" by a racist group, would wearing a Swastika arm band or flying a Swastika flag over my house be okay because I have German heritage and it used to, at one point, be synonymous with good luck and good fortune?

No, it would not. It is the connotation that the symbol has today that makes it wrong or bad to use or show off, so even if you were correct in your assumption that it did not stand for slavery in the first place it does not matter because for the last nearly one hundred years it has been used to demonstrate a hate of not only an entire 'race' of people, but also of the government of which the South rebelled against so long ago.