Get Rid of Numbers

[Alric Kuhn]

[member="Otto Shule"]

That would be exactly why you get rid of numbers though.

In your own words you basically just said that numbers don't matter because through the course of RP they change anyway depending on whose interpreting what and handwaving whichever attack is happening. Numbers don't matter, they just serve to complicate an already complicated facet of RP'ing.

Going off of just Strengths and Weaknesses as well as Description serves to simplify it to make it more accessible.

 

[Republic Engineering]

From a certain point of view, Yes - you'd be right, and from another - so too would I.

However, having those numbers cemented, acting as a reference, would be more ideal than not having them at all. Perhaps eliminating the rating and just having flat values for weapons would be better. Wookieepedia does it, and it's easily understood. (Not the previously used Gun count/value either.)

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

 

[Teynara Jeralyr]

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

For the most part, I agree. However, I could see the absence of numbers being manipulated to produce ships that otherwise would be restricted or inappropriate (particularly personal ships breaking the 1km rule), so I'd want to see some numbers being kept in there. But it wouldn't hurt to reduce it down a little!

 

[Alric Kuhn]

[member="Tirdarius"]

The Lengths and dimensions would stay in place.

You also have to remember that I'm not advocating for like...no FJ's to judge these ships. So the standard protocols to stop abuse would still be in place.

[member="Otto Shule"]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think in an ideal world you're correct, but tbh Here it's just gotten too complicated and difficult.

 

[Republic Engineering]

Because of preconceived notions about how Fleeting should be properly done/translated into a text-based format. Anyways, I'm straying away from the point of this topic.

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

 

[Klesta]

Hyperdrive ratings can be much more easily done away with.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

and your opponent can merely ignore/negate any of the incoming damage, as evidenced by my posts as Astarii Saren during the Deadly Void encounter.

Uhh huh. I totally ignored everything, that's why you blew up Immortals, Wyyrloks and numerous other ships whilst losing only 2 ships of your own, right?

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

Do you, and the others in this thread really think that getting rid of an armament and defence value will bring people flocking to make starships?

Right now all you need is 4 numbers, attack and defence, speed and manoeuvre. You don't need to define a single gun type, don't need to list a single weapon. All you need to do is look at a chart and put in some numbers.

The real reason people don't make warships and don't fleet is because it's a niche topic. I'll tell you why; even if you took away all the numbers you still have to deal with large numbers of NPCs, you need to understand how ships work in canon and you need to be able to write strategically.

There might be a few people here who would do that, but I would like that to be put to the test. Hold a non-canon fleeting battle with no numbers like you suggest and see how many members flock to take part. I would love to see the result, and it might just surprise me enough to think better of this idea.

 

[Republic Engineering]

That was only my first post that went unanswered, and recently referred too. Quick posts at work don't really work for me, but I felt like I had to toss my hat into the ring before the fires faded.

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

 

[Alric Kuhn]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

You quite literally have...what four or five people in this thread saying that those numbers are EXACTLY why they avoid starships? Not just subbing them, but actually one of the judges and an RPJ saying the same thing. So yes, I do think it would make people sub more ships.

This is also not all about fleeting. Perhaps you're under that impression that's the end point because it's what you use starships for, but that isn't even the majority of their use. Sure that's the flash and maybe end point for some people, but a large majority of Chaos doesn't fleet, like you said. That doesn't mean however they don't want to sub ships. I know this because I have subbed...dozens of ships over the years and have fleeted all of three times.

There's is something fun about making space ships, and guess what? Those numbers ruin the fun for a lot of people.

Fleeting absolutely is niche, subbing starships? Probably not so much.

Those numbers to some people are intimidating, arduous, and difficult. There is testimony to that fact in this very thread and I know a few others who have expressed the same opinion to me. They don't want to "plug" the numbers. This isn't me going "I think fleeting would be easier and completely better if we switched to this system.", I don't think fleeting will ever actually be easier. This is me going "Subbing ships will be easier and less intimidating if we use this system."

 

[Judah Dashiell]

I love the idea

 

[Verz Horak]

I agree, we should change the theme of the board to sexual Elf fantasy!

What is it with you putting these kinds of posts in the threads I go to today?

Anyway to be on topic, I imagine the fact that there is a starship arms race is primarily because the core of this board, as is the core of the Star Wars setting, is conflict. Every faction is vying with the others to be superior. We don't have in depth economic simulation, so that's out. What's left is military and political superiority. Let's face it, the "arms race" state of mind for starship dev is just an extension of a core theme of Star Wars.

 

[Verz Horak]

stupid slow internet connection making me double post

 

[Popo]

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

Just my two bits: I like starships. I like building nice things with neat stuff and one of the best ways to give people a concept to look at, at a glance, is those numbers. I heavily dislike armament ratings and defensive ratings because I feel they oversimplify things at the very least, but this isn't really the place for that discussion. Thing is, I'd rather take ratings, which I dislike, over no numbers at all because doing so makes absolutely no sense.

You've got five people who support the idea for whatever reason, but the reason you don't have anyone popping up in defense of the current system is because most of us are looking at the thread going "... Yeah, this won't work and won't happen. I'm gonna go post in a RP thread instead of here." I'm phrasing that sort of thing curtly and probably a bit more sharply than I really want to, but it gets the message across.

For once, I am in agreement with [member="Valiens Nantaris"], though. If you can pull it off and it works and folks flock to it, cool beans. Hand me the crow and some silverware, but I'll be pre-ordering MandoBurger regardless.

 

[Lily Kilia]

As a character who is a pilot yet doesn't do any fleeting, might I say I don't because I have no idea how to interpret any of the numbers even though they were explained to me....please, get rid of the number system...or at least make it easier to work with?

 

[HK-36]

[member="Judah Dashiell"],

You love everything


Except me Q.Q


[member="Verz Horak"],

I put those type of things all over the board, you just happened to read a couple of them for once


Anyway, to do something on topic for once, I think the Starship system is complicated, but at the same time that we need number ratings as a guide to help us quantify the ship's strength and weaknesses. So I would stay don't get rid of the system, make it simpler and more approachable, but at the same time I never really got into ship-tech creation or fleeting, because the system looked so complicated and expansive, so I don't really have much insight into the field. I do like the number ratings when it comes to Tech like weaponry or armor rating.

 

[Judah Dashiell]

[member="HK-36"]

 

[H3xle]

I disagree that it makes no sense. Maybe on small ships it makes a difference between 3 turbolasers and an Ion cannon to one with 5 ion canons and 3 turbolasers, maybe. Once you get up there, to where you have 30 of each, plus a dozen launchers, or even bigger, to ones with thousands of guns, it just gets too complicated and arcane.

I posit that it makes more sense to have strengths/weaknesses like "Has a shit ton of Turbo lasers" but "Is light on ion cannons", which people can use and write that shields will last longer than hull, in general. It lets people actually write, rather then have to have whole planning sessions outside of the IC realm where they essentially play a War Game that no one else sees.

War Games are fun, don't get me wrong, but it is very difficult to write a story about turn based war gaming when you're worried about how your number of cannons stands against their number of cannons.

And whether or not it brings flocks of people to fleeting and subbing ships, if it makes it easier for a new person to the site to jump into it, isn't that worth it? People can always agree to make certain threads be Mathhammer, but let people who want to just write, be able to write in all parts of the story.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

No.

Why:

• The Three Tiers system of Force Users has already been proven to have no value in PvP. We all already decided that 'anybody can beat anybody', for any reason. Padawans can spank Masters. Numbers or tiers, while we use them, have very little meaning in PvP. Yet, they remain and are very, very useful.

Similar Fleeting,

• Ships have definite sizes, speeds, hyperdrive ratings, and guns. And, like FU tiers, have very little meaning in actual PvP. Especially among skilled writers.

Now. That's may arguement for numbers. However, complexity is another issue. I hate complexity. Imagine for a moment that we had 8 Force User tiers of advancement. That would be annoying as hell.

Similar ships. Ships are very complex on this website. Building one, especially when researching similar vessels and it's competition, is annoying as hell on this website. They categorized annoyingly, searched annoyingly, read annoyingly, and held in various measures of esteem, /annoyance, in every Major Factions resource sections. (Heck, some factions don't even bother to keep a list of their ships anymore.)

So. Are ships and fleeting too complex on this website? Yes. Is getting rid of numbers from them templates a step in the right direction? No. I don't believe so. I think it's a symptom of a lack of education on how to Fleet without them. In fact, I might suggest that a Guide be made to show all the beginners how to propery Fleet and prioritize their desire to win, excel, and build; accordingly. Solve the problem. Educate the people.

/2cents /1opinion

 

[Kenrath]

I'm not a tech-y kind of guy so this really doesn't concern me, but I imagine for fleeters the numbers are important? Otherwise it'd just be one fleeter claiming his fleet is better equipped than the opposition without any numbers backing him/her up.

[member="Thurion Heavenshield"]

I see your point, but you're surprisingly wrong...At least from my experience with Fleeters.

When Fleeting the amount of guns your ship actually has doesn't matter a huge amount. There have been instances after all where tiny fleets have beaten bigger ones, vice versa, or even were a single ship beat an entire fleet. Gun Counts don't really matter because in the end this is RP it's not a tabletop game where everything is based on Dice rolls and exact math.

Besides that point, several Fleeters have talked to me and a few have posted in here and they support this so I don't think thats a huge concern.

As a writer who has multiple times tried to writer Fleeters including this character as my current one I have to agree with Thurion in this instance.

While I will agree the numbers can be daunting they matter a whole heck of a lot to me as a Fleeter. Not only what guns are present but how many of each one there is.


I look at it this way. There seems to never be a shortage of people willing to do the math and submit Star ships to the Factory. I know of 4 or 5 who max out or come close to maxing out their number of allowable submission on a weekly basis.

You also have to consider what head honcho Valiens has pointed out that Fleeting is and has for as long as I have been here a fairly niche group. A lot may try it here and there but the consistently active and dedicated Fleeters number maybe 5 or 6 chaos wide on any given week.

 

[Lord Ajihad]

I would just like to point out that the hyperdrive rating is actually canon, so at the very least I'd urge you not to get rid of that.

That being said, I think [member="Popo"] is right in that the attack/defense ratings do oversimplify things. I feel that they are looked at too seriously and can allow fleeting to become more of a numbers game than most of us would like to admit. However, I think it is a necessary evil in order to define a starship's capabilities.

As for the speed rating, I think there is a much simpler solution. I'd personally suggest just turning the speed rating into max speed range. For example:

Max Speed: Somewhere between 1,050-1,150 km/h

Less people would get confused that way.

Just my .02