Let's shed some of this baggage.

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Tefka"]

I've seen stuff then and seen stuff now. Whilst it might not be worse, its certainly different and its slowly damaged this place.

 

[Kalic Daws]

Ok, most people have already brought up points that I have, and I’m currently on mobile so I’m keeping it short and too the point (as if I know another way to say thing). Also, not targeting anyone in these things. Heck, I forget who said what with most of this stuff.

I, thankfully, haven’t run into many OOC issues in my time on Chaos, and the ones that have come up were resolve quickly, and without need to bring staff in. That being said, I’ve also seen some things that have come up.

While I’ll admit that invasion season tends to be tense, and that some questions got over asked, a lot of people did act quite dismissive when any idea of change was brought up. A common argument was “no one complained when X happened years ago,” or things to that extent and start up a salt feast in the process. It wasn’t constructive at the very least. Again, I understand tensions were high, but it’s almost made me rethink adding my own opinion to the feedback section out of the chance of it being seen as salt, when it’s just honest feedback on my part.

Also, I’ve seen it somewhere else but I’ll mention it again here, while the rule updates were probably need, the timing of implementing them mid invasion season didn’t help matter where OOC is concerned. And again, you would see some people leaving what I found to be legitimate criticism simply have at least one person get a bit mad with them, or at least it’s how it came off.

And finally, again while I haven’t had trouble with staff, I do have to agree that the hands off approach may need to be re-evaluated. While a hands off, self policing forum can work well, I feel that until some of the more glaring OOC communication issues get resolved it may be best to become a bit more hands on. Even if only for a short time.

Well, there’s my two-cents.

 

[Jsc]

All valid responses that totally disregard the impact major factions have on the site culture and atmosphere. There's a lot of power and responsibility there with a substantial effect on newcomers who get gobbled up by recruitment oriented writers. With that sort of hands off approach, it's not really a surprise that this tribalist sort of divided culture continues to permeate through the site. And discord has only helped shield these practices from recourse.

So true.

But isn't the website working as intended then?

I mean. Wasn't the Map Game designed to push us into separate communities, who compete against each other, with zero supervision, few tools, little education, no role models or templates, and a never-escaping emotion of having zero control of our own future. ...Wasn't that how it was supposed to work in the first place.

Staff is snapping a pool cue. Throwing it into the middle of the room. And saying, "Kay here's the game. Group up and fight over it. We're hands off." And some of ya'll are wondering why this community looks barbaric?

I'm confused. What were ya'll expecting? Because some of ya'll are walking into this Viking Mead House and complaining it's not French enough.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

So true.

But isn't the website working as intended then?

The ultimate intention is to have everyone happy, so no.

I mean. Wasn't the Map Game designed to push us into separate communities, who compete against each other, with zero supervision, few tools, little education, no role models or templates, and a never-escaping emotion of having zero control of our own future. ...Wasn't that how it was supposed to work in the first place.

Factions pre-existed Map Game, so separate GROUPS already existed. Suppose to have low super vision, I agree. But, that doesn't excuse unhappy people. No role models or templates, limited control - this isn't the issue. Its conduct, and how we treat each other.

Separate factions or not, but we should still be respectful.

Staff is snapping a pool cue. Throwing it into the middle of the room. And saying, "Kay here's the game. Group up and fight over it. We're hands off." And some of ya'll are wondering why this community looks barbaric?

I'm confused. What were ya'll expecting? Because some of ya'll are walking into this Viking Mead House and complaining it's not French enough.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Its not supposed to be barbaric or cut-throat. The map game is flavour to the narrative, we're still ​a community.

Even just read what Tefka is saying, the site OWNER. This toxicity and gossip, the hate and lack of sportsmanship is not just competitive nature or friendly barbarism.

 

[Coren Starchaser]

Chaos reminds me of Eve Online. I like it.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"] - Your last sentence is on point. I overindulged by replying at Rev. Tef set this thread up to see who was feeling ostracized or run off the board. Probably a discord thing really. And I shouldn't clutter it with one-offs about board mechanics when somebody out there might actually have something important they need to get off their chest.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Sad thing is, nobody on either side is here. Nobody from the CIC, old NR, CIS, UCM. None of the people primarily involved in what could be considered the biggest issues regarding this topic are here.

It's likely for a multitude of reasons but it says to me that people just don't have faith in staff or that Chaos can be a less toxic environment.

So to anyone reading that's felt harassed or has something to get off their chest, go ahead.

The only way we'll be able to fix anything at all is if people get the ugly truth of situation out in the open. Tag the relevant people.

Factions need to be talking to each other. Everybody should know who's invading who at least a month even before the announcement goes up. Open & honest communication amongst all.

No blood hound impulse bully invasions and if we actually all worked together instead of trying to f*ck each other like a bunch of children that'd be great.

 

[Ryan]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"] there are a few members of UCM posting to this. I would love to see Yasha to post her thoughts on this. Being probably one of the more hated person's on this site. Which honestly boggles my mind, meeting her in person and her husband opening their home to me for a few days, i can honestly say what ever BS folks have to say about her is garbage. One of the nicest ladies i have ever met. She is human and has made mistakes like the rest of us but damn, the things that people have said in discord about her. Shame that all of it has finally gotten to her and she is now on LOA.

That is what toxicity has done, keeps pushing good people away.

 

[Tefka]

Chaos getting horribly off-topic and fair-weather members coming in to give us their solutions before returning to inactivity is always expected, as it always happens.

This isn't my first rodeo.

Regardless of my skepticism, here's some solid points I'll offer.

1. I like the "what have you done wrong" thing people have been posting. My biggest problem is I'm hypocritical. I'll say one thing, do another, and by example edge open that door that allows fringe ideas to fester in the community and kick open the door to meme trolling and irreputable behavior. I'll come out here, year after year, and ask for a better tomorrow and then continue over indulging in my debased humor. A lot of these problems continue here because people like me exist at the highest echelons of this community and portray that some of this behavior is okay, because they see us doing it too.

2. It's my observation that some of you won't be sticking around to help with these problems, you're just lurkers who like the drama. Keep lurking, our SEO enjoys the hits. But please don't contribute to steering us off topic or towards solutions you won't be sticking around to help with. We don't need your grand off the shelf idea, we need people to stick around and work on this, because problems between humans are not fixed overnight. It's work.

3. A few of you are going "high and right". For example, the post above me says Yasha, one of the prior leaders of the Mandalorian Clans, is one of the most hated people on this site. That claim is absurd, and the only one making it is that person. I knew Yasha, adored her. I know others who know Yasha, and adore her. This is an example of extreme hyperbole, and this sort of extremism serves only to inflame conversation and represents that you are not a person who wishes to make solutions, but dwell in a fictional representation of the current circumstances. I do not take the statement seriously and it diminishes your ability to further be taken seriously. Please don't indulge in this sort of hyperbole if you wish to hold rational conversation with other human beings.

 

[Tefka]

Also please stop asking us to be proactive. I'm an American, free speech is kind of a big deal to us. I won't be limiting what people can write so long as it stays in the rules, even if it's a continuation of the current situation.

This isn't my problem to fix, it's ours.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

A lot of these problems continue here because people like me exist at the highest echelons of this community and portray that some of this behavior is okay, because they see us doing it too.

Pretty much this, to an extent. There are people in the highest positions of influence that just outright shouldn't be.

EDIT:

Maybe that's too extreme, I don't believe everyone who has made mistakes where its myself, Tefka, Guy, Yasha or anyone else necessarily are evil or need to leave. But communication needs to improve, and so does civility.

I'd love to be able to get on with people, things to go smoothly. But right now as a prospective Major Faction leader, I'm deeply concerned about how difficult maintaining relations will be or could be. And not just because of history but also just the climate of the site.

 

[Tefka]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"]

This is an easy thing to say, but there's always those unforeseen consequences that accompany granting the wish. "Things can't get worse", they always say. I count myself among the most faulted of leadership in this community, but were I to leave, it would cease to exist.

My inbox is always open.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Tefka"] was editing while you replied.

But I agree, nothing is gonna be easy and I'm not gonna call for anybody to be excommunicated unless they've broken rules egregiously and even then I think admins already deal with people like that adeptly.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Well, I know I'm definitely more of a lurker than a poster at this point, but I hope I'm contributing something useful to this conversation. With what Tefka said in mind...

I think we need [member="Darth Metus"] to come join our little therapy session. He's an active member of the community and he clearly has an opinion on the matter. But sitting in the corner mumbling to yourself via passive agressive status updates and blog posts isn't doing anything to resolve the situation. The thread is up, the conversations are happening. If you have something to say, say it here.

Even if you think people are just being whiny little ******* and should grow thicker skin or stop playing a game where losing is such a problem for them. Get in here and say it. And don't get me wrong. I get the sentiment. Most of the time, when I see people complaining about people being mean or unfair to them, my reaction is the same as yours. I cringe and wish they'd "just get over it."

But this nonsense has been festering on Chaos for a long time and there are definitely things that can be done to help deal with this, and those answers don't have to be "deal with it or leave."

I mean. I want you to sit down for a minute and really think about the message you just sent through your blog post. Yes, you expressed yourself and your opinions. That's fine, everyone should encourage that. But judging from your own title, you knew that what you were saying would be offensive to people. You knew it'd offend your fellow community members and you threw it out there anyway. Which is fine and all... But you waited until after your faction's invasion was over and decided upon so that being offensive to your fellow writers wouldn't cause you to lose on the map game.

I want you to really think about that. You, by all appearances and your own statements, care more about winning the game than being offensive and hurtful to your fellow writers. But you slam others for being upset at "losing the game." And if I'm misreading what the message of your blog post is supposed to be, then I apologise and I hope you come in here and do a better job of representing yourself than I'm doing. Either way, even if I'm wrong in my interpretation of your message, can you at least see how and why it could come off that way to others?

And, most importantly, do you have any ideas on how we can move past this without resorting to the "deal with it or don't play" approach?

Do you think adding a dislike button would bring an end to the passive agressive blog posts, or would it just add a new avenue for people to be Petty and dismissive of one another?

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

​When I read 'Play smart' [member="Darth Metus"] or play strategic - I also read, make your faction as accessible as possible even if it sacrifices the integrity of the very role play we're here for. Niches shouldn't have to stop being niche so they can be relevant to the Map Game. I'd probably have double the members I have if I played the way CIS or other groups did. But that's a difference in the stories we're writing, and it shouldn't negatively impact its viability in a way that's essentially perceived as just lesser.

​I also don't think someone who essentially in the position he is because people around him worked their asses of and has a super accessible faction gets to just respond with something that equates to get good.

​Especially when it just isn't that simple.

 

[Tefka]

I think you both touched on what I believe is the root of our issue I started this thread about.

Don't concern yourselves with people you can't control, only focus on those you can. When these people you name want to speak on these issues, they will. The problem isn't them, though. The problem isn't the toxicity of blog posts, status updates, meta-gaming, map games, etc.

The problem is how we choose to react to these things.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Tefka"]

The problem we can solve may be how we deal with things, but that won't change the primary issues of segregation and toxicity within the community as a whole.

You can't ignore these people, certainly when the basis of success regarding more well-received invasions and map play is communication and collaboration.

You can't control people but they can certainly can affect you & it clearly has done so. You can turn the other cheek but just ignoring one and other will not alleviate the tension or bad blood between members.

 

[Tefka]

You can't ignore these people

Can't you?

 

[Tefka]

Through technology, all things are possible.

 

[Kalic Daws]

[member="Tefka"] I think what [member="Tathra Khaeus"] means, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that some people either won’t let you ignore them, or that situations are created that would prevent you from ignoring them. Take the map game. If you have issues with someone, but a faction they’re in invades you, you may not have a choice as ignoring them would mean you might ignore some major even in the invasion, or the possibility that they could wanna gun for you. (Note: Never happened to me, just thinking of the possibilities.)