Tweak the focus of the Map Game

[Zark San Tekka]

Alright I suppose I should weigh in here since I helped start this thing and the public face of our movement is currently getting pilloried by a somewhat defensive site admin.

Yes I helped Daro workshop this suggestion, and yes we are both codex judges. Let's get that out of the way first. Its important to note that our recommendations on what to tweak with regards to territory expansion were intended as rough suggestions, and that was on purpose so that the community could discuss what they feel would be acceptable on their own merits, rather than refuting particulars which were only developed to get the conversation started. I see we were only partially successful.

I happen to agree with the detractors on the subject things like codex and factory submissions. I believe they are only indirect metrics of a group's activity. I know some people in this thread would scoff at the notion of them being remotely relevant at all, but I do believe that more active factions can energize people's imaginations to go and do things like contribute more regularly to the codex, and that is the only reason why they were included on this list. No, despite Tefka's apparent greatest fears, this is not a conspiracy by bitter codex judges to shift the focus of the map game to who has the most force nexuses or whatever.

I have seen a lot of the strongest voices against in this thread repeat time and time again, that this suggestion feels like it is looking to tear down a dominion system that does genuinely work for certain groups, or at least is made tolerable by a high level of creative output. That was absolutely not our intention. I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but I do think its a crucial point, the OP says lets replace the "dominion system". It was not our intention to suggest that we limit people's play styles, or curtail a certain type of thread.

This was merely a suggestion that it might improve people's quality of life if we democratized the ways in which factions can accumulate territory hexes. This was supposed to be about giving groups more options, not taking them away. If you want to keep writing dominion threads for your territory, I absolutely believe you should be able to do so and that should count for the same rewards as it did under the current system.

So if I don't want to "kill" dominions, what is the point of this suggestion at all? What's so wrong with dominions? In my opinion, two things.

1. They are limited by geography.

I know, I know, it seems like common sense that a faction should put the effort in to actually develop territory that they acquire. Someone in this thread mentioned that this idea would kill their immersion, and I think that is a valid critique. But what I and several others who are more in favor of such a change have noticed, is that the dominion treadmill keeps factions more or less completely focused from month to month on their farthest frontiers. It is a system that does nothing to encourage actually using a hex once its been taken over, all future faction threads in that space are entirely on the onus of the faction, and irrelevant to the map game.

2. They end, usually* relatively quickly.

This is not a universal rule, I understand that several factions have written dominions even under the newer 50 post system that have gone on for some time, groups such as CIS regularly get up to 70-80 posts or so. But the fact remains, it is baked in to the ruleset that, if you want credit for your territory by the end of the month, there must be some form of plot resolution. I can't think of a single instance where a faction on Chaos has intentionally delayed a dominion that was past 50 posts into the next month, forfeiting their territory because they were having such a good time. I remember several instances just from my own experience, where I had to tell GA writers to stop having fun and resolve their plotlines because it was less than a week until map update time.

It seems as if it has become a common practice for the larger groups to bust out their three dominions as early in the month as possible, maybe with a slight break in between so as not to burn members out, and then they spend the last week or so messing around with smaller faction and private threads. This doesn't seem like a system that is working as intended to me.

I am not interested in wrecking anyone's playstyle, as I said if a group wants to continue hex to hex focused, smaller (~50 post) storylines, all the power to them. Groups like CIS and TSE have refined that down to a science, and it was absolutely not our intention to come across like we were taking a shot at that success. But as it stands right now, those threads are the only threads that are in any way relevant to the map game. Perhaps now more than ever, they are the only threads that matter to major factions at all, given the systemic breakdown of diplomatic OOC relations between major factions and loss of faith in the invasion judgment system.

I know it seems harsh to speak in terms of threads that "matter", and those that don't. But unfortunately, that is the calculus the current dominion system has afforded us.

 

[LT-137]

[member="Scherezade deWinter"] - Instead of touting how awesome your faction is, and that everyone should get on their level - why not bring something actually credible to this discussion to the table? Every point that’s been made, has been done so as a generalization. As it stands, the CIS is an exception to a very common attitude shared between a lot of people. Those that dislike the current Dominion ruleset may not speak their mind here, and that’s fine - but it doesn’t discredit their thoughts on the matter. They may simply be uncomfortable giving them voice - because they’re afraid of dealing with any blowback - or people trying to brow-beat them with the mindset of “it works for me, so it should work for you too.”

[member="Suravi Teigra"] - While I’m of the mindset that the current dominion’s, as well as what they were previously, was an interesting concept at first - they’ve become pretty stale as almost every dominion is a rehash of what’s come before. So, at least from my perspective, I see your idea as an interesting alternative - since it seeks to combat the episodic nature that such threads have become as of late - but not really solving the problem in its entirety.

I think if we incorporated your idea with a few others, we might make an interesting patch to the map game/ faction expansion cycle.

Just off the top of my head, I believe that if we removed the whole “three objectives” stigma from dominion threads, we’d allow for a freeform approach towards a faction’s hex acquisition. Basically, turn the entire thread into a BYOO - where the overarching story requirements are still the same - but how you do it is entirely up to the author. While some people would think this is more of a lazy approach, I tend to think of it as allowing the member base to figure things out for themselves - while the faction staff can craft a beautiful backdrop without having to worry about falling into the previously mentioned stagnant objectives.

However, after re-reading the new dominion rules - I think it’s technically possible to presently carry out both of our ideas. They state that a Major Faction may work toward any number of simultaneous dominions, but may only submit three in a single calendar month. As well, they do not state that three objectives are required for said dominion to be considered valid - only that they’re judged by three categories.

Perhaps, we could work towards “tweaking” the generalized mindset that most dominions have fallen into by setting examples with our future dominions?

________​

As a former faction owner and member of another faction’s administrative team - the biggest issue I’ve had is the faction’s member base throwing it’s spaghetti at the wall demanding that things be done. I’m not a fan of that mindset. I like the sandbox approach, as that allows for people to think for themselves and assist the faction staff in guiding their faction towards new heights. Not everyone may agree with me - but I don’t really care. I’m just someone that enjoys writing and has difficulties stopping and starting new storylines - as well as helping certain factions (be they my own, or others if they’ve asked/paid me to help) grow within the current map conditions.

So, what I hope for - at the end of all this - is something that helps rejuvenate not only my desire to post in dominion threads but for others as well. I can't help but to reiterate this point to stress that I'm not only in it for myself down the road, but I'd like to do something about it now - so I can get back on the saddle.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Scherezade deWinter - Instead of touting how awesome your faction is, and that everyone should get on their level - why not bring something actually credible to this discussion to the table? Every point that’s been made, has been done so as a generalization. As it stands, the CIS is an exception to a very common attitude shared between a lot of people. Those that dislike the current Dominion ruleset may not speak their mind here, and that’s fine - but it doesn’t discredit their thoughts on the matter. They may simply be uncomfortable giving them voice - because they’re afraid of dealing with any blowback - or people trying to brow-beat them with the mindset of “it works for me, so it should work for you too.”

I don't know dude, how about instead of taking an example that I used in one post and touting it over and over again like it's some sort of poodoo tossing anchor, you actually read what I'm trying to convey? No system, not the current one and not any that might replace it, is going to keep people from burning out, if a faction's staff isn't doing its job of leadership and keeping the members interested. It's really not such a hard concept to grasp.

 

[LT-137]

[member="Scherezade deWinter"] - Nor is adding anything worthwhile to a conversation, but here we are.

Shrug

 

[Darth Carnifex]

Instead of touting how awesome your faction is, and that everyone should get on their level - why not bring something actually credible to this discussion to the table? Every point that’s been made, has been done so as a generalization. As it stands, the CIS is an exception to a very common attitude shared between a lot of people. Those that dislike the current Dominion ruleset may not speak their mind here, and that’s fine - but it doesn’t discredit their thoughts on the matter. They may simply be uncomfortable giving them voice - because they’re afraid of dealing with any blowback - or people trying to brow-beat them with the mindset of “it works for me, so it should work for you too.”

Say it louder for the people in the back.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Scherezade deWinter - Nor is adding anything worthwhile to a conversation, but here we are. Shrug

Yeah, because difference in opinions means not adding anything worthwhile. In the meantime you rephrased some things that both I and others who share my stance have said as a suggestion to someone else. Keep up the good work & take care of that attitude problem You and I are done here.

 

[Definitely Not Tefka]

While deWinter and Khonsu make out, let's discuss how Dominions are shallow but literally nobody makes use of Flashpoints, Conquests, Diplomacy, or Mandates.

Map game's shallow.

But we've got all these toys.

The man with everything...

 

[LT-137]

Flashpoint's only work with Invasions and Rebellions - both of which have been lacking and have a 1/10 chance of actually happening. Why not change it so Dominion's have a chance of causing them as well? Currently, you can avoid them by only posting two dominion's a month, or hoping for the best when it comes time to post that third dominion.

Conquests would be nice if they added mercenary minor's in as a single third party ally slot. Just sayin'

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

its job of leadership and keeping the members interested. It's really not such a hard concept to grasp.

Isn't the same thing as saying git gud and touting how awesome your faction is?

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Isn't the same thing as saying git gud and touting how awesome your faction is?

Some people only see what they want. How the heck do you go from "Faction staff needs to keep faction members interested" to "hahaha CIS is awesome CIS is great omg omg omg everyone else git gud CIS is AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEE" is beyond me.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

Strange how that is conveyed.

[member="Scherezade deWinter"]

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

[member="Darth Carnifex"] yeah, who'd have thunk CIS is an anathema word to use and some people will ignore everything afterwards. How silly of me.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

I wonder how that happened.

[member="Scherezade deWinter"]

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

[member="Darth Carnifex"] If you wanna make this personal you can open another thread for your anti-CIS spew, or hit me up in DM. Until then, leave your salt at the door.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Some people only see what they want. How the heck do you go from "Faction staff needs to keep faction members interested" to "hahaha CIS is awesome CIS is great omg omg omg everyone else git gud CIS is AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEE" is beyond me.

Because, its blatnatly clear that for one that the CIS members in particular are 1. the only people really benifitting from that particular outlook and 2. the only ones expressing it thus far.

Like [member="Khonsu Amon"] stated, the CIS has a particularly unique set of skills (can't remember the rest of the taken quote) but, thing is that CIS makes it look easy. But its not, and what you're saying is basically 'try harder' even though the CIS is an exception to a very common perspective that it isn't just the admins or how creative the people are behind doms that are at fault. But in fact, the idea of doms themselves.

While, you're proposing the fault lies with the writers themselves. Which, whether you say it or not, is a very clear 'git gud'

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Because, its blatnatly clear that for one that the CIS members in particular are 1. the only people really benifitting from that particular outlook and 2. the only ones expressing it thus far.

There have been non-CIS members expressing this too. Not only those who are pro-the suggestions are keeping quiet because of this or other backlash.

But its not, and what you're saying is basically 'try harder' even though the CIS is an exception to a very common perspective that it isn't just the admins or how creative the people are behind doms that are at fault.

Considering one of the responses I got was "staff factions aren't in charge of making things fun for the members", no, I'm not saying "try harder", I'm saying "try". People insist on clinging to 2-3 objectives and a BYOO when that is nowhere stated as mandatory. People are insisting in starting and finishing three doms a month what that too is not written anywhere (unless you want an SSD).

• If a faction's doms are repetitive; you turn to the people who write them. Or, you can offer to help them write up new ones. Or, do both.
• If a faction's doms are repetitive and their members don't want to write in them because of that; it's the faction staff's responsibility to try and find a solution.
• If any faction staffers are on staff for the staff bling on Discord and refuse to put in the very work they signed up to be responsible for; replace them (no, this is not about LOAs and the times RL smacks anyone in the face).

But in fact, the idea of doms themselves.

Or maybe, just maybe, people cling to that 50 post thing. The 50 post thing as a minimum requirement is the only mandatory thing in doms that needs to be completed for the hex to be added to a faction's cloud. That's it. There are almost no restrictions on the content of those 50 posts (obviously, you can't post a meme per post, nothing else, and expect it to be accepted). You want the contents of a skirmish? You can do that in a dom. You want the contents of something diplomatic? You can do that in a dom. You want it to be centered around something that's a big event for one of your faction's members? You can do that in a dom. You want to explore a location someone in your faction just subbed? You can do that in a dom. You want to start a dom now but only hand it in 3 months from now when there are 500 posts in it? You can do that too!

So... No, dominions are not the problem. People clinging to their minimal requirements as though it's the main requirement is a problem.

Also, keep in mind that nowhere does it say that a faction has to do any dominions at all.

While, you're proposing the fault lies with the writers themselves. Which, whether you say it or not, is a very clear 'git gud'

Re-read what I wrote above. There is no 'git gud' said or implied anywhere. But yes, keeping faction members interested always has and always will be the responsibility of the faction staff. For any faction, for any board, in any fandom.

 

[Fiolette Fortan]

There is nothing stopping a faction staff from going to their member base and asking for dominion suggestions, or how to better help their faction's characters or to create a faction narrative in which to drive dominions. If your faction staff is burnt out, okay that happens - nothing is going to prevent that. Others can step up, they don't even have to be staff they can be members who run a dominino for that month. Dominions are the basic form of collaborative storytelling. If you cannot find it in yourself to do them, don't - if you like them great.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

-read what I wrote above. There is no 'git gud' said or implied anywhere.

I am reading it and....

Considering one of the responses I got was "staff factions aren't in charge of making things fun for the members", no, I'm not saying "try harder", I'm saying "try". People insist on clinging to 2-3 objectives and a BYOO when that is nowhere stated as mandatory. People are insisting in starting and finishing three doms a month what that too is not written anywhere (unless you want an SSD).

You're saying 'try' which, kind of imples that the people who disagree with you aren't trying. If that isn't a git gud, I don't know what is. I don't think people cling to those 2-3 objectives and a BYOO strictly, and people are trying. I can remember doing dominions, trying to make them interesting. Really trying.

Or maybe, just maybe, people cling to that 50 post thing. The 50 post thing as a minimum requirement is the only mandatory thing in doms that needs to be completed for the hex to be added to a faction's cloud. That's it. There are almost no restrictions on the content of those 50 posts (obviously, you can't post a meme per post, nothing else, and expect it to be accepted). You want the contents of a skirmish? You can do that in a dom. You want the contents of something diplomatic? You can do that in a dom. You want it to be centered around something that's a big event for one of your faction's members? You can do that in a dom. You want to explore a location someone in your faction just subbed? You can do that in a dom. You want to start a dom now but only hand it in 3 months from now when there are 500 posts in it? You can do that too!

People cling to that 50 post thing BECAUSE doms are the problem. Because, all those things you're saying you can do in a dom? Has nothing to do with why people do doms. Doms are done, cause map game. And, while yes you can do all these wonderful things in a dominion, you can do it anywhere else. So, people do stick to those 50 post things, and I'm pretty sure CIS doesn't go far beyond the minimum until its sent out for approval either. Because, doms are there for map game. Not player enjoyment.

That's why, personally I feel they are the problem and the 'try harder' attitude you have isn't relevant or helpful.

Re-read what I wrote above. There is no 'git gud' said or implied anywhere. But yes, keeping faction members interested always has and always will be the responsibility of the faction staff. For any faction, for any board, in any fandom.

There is plenty of 'git gud' implied everywhere. Sorry, but that's all I see.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

You're saying 'try' which, kind of imples that the people who disagree with you aren't trying. If that isn't a git gud, I don't know what is. I don't think people cling to those 2-3 objectives and a BYOO strictly, and people are trying. I can remember doing dominions, trying to make them interesting. Really trying.

Then try something else. I elaborated in a gigantic paragraph about what can be done. If you keep trying to do the same thing but expect different results, you've got a problem. There's a really famous quote about that.

People cling to that 50 post thing BECAUSE doms are the problem. Because, all those things you're saying you can do in a dom? Has nothing to do with why people do doms. Doms are done, cause map game. And, while yes you can do all these wonderful things in a dominion, you can do it anywhere else. So, people do stick to those 50 post things, and I'm pretty sure CIS doesn't go far beyond the minimum until its sent out for approval either. Because, doms are there for map game. Not player enjoyment. That's why, personally I feel they are the problem and the 'try harder' attitude you have isn't relevant or helpful.

You can also do "classic" Dom-like stories outside of doms. You don't have to do the map game, you can stick to your starting hexes or gain more via diplomacy/invasions if you can find someone willing to write with you.

I hate fleeting, so I don't do fleeting. Am I whining about changing the fleeting rules? Nope. You want to magically gain hexes by... Doing all the things you could do in a dom, without doing it in a dom? Then you're the problem, not the 50 posts. There is a difference between a cause of a problem and a symptom. When all you do is whine about the symptoms and not the problem, then whatever change you put in place, you'll be whining about the same thing again not too long from now.

And since you insist on bringing CIS back into the convo time and time again - go check our doms out. Have fun.

There is plenty of 'git gud' implied everywhere. Sorry, but that's all I see

If needing to put work to gain things in a game in implies 'get gut', there's a bunch of non-Chaos related problems one needs to solve before coming on the site.

But no worries, I saw you harping about spreading more salt in the general discord chat. I guess some people are more interested in salt mining than they are in RP.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Then try something else. I elaborated in a gigantic paragraph about what can be done. If you keep trying to do the same thing but expect different results, you've got a problem. There's a really famous quote about that.

Then try something else? I don't recall every saying that I've attempted the same things over and over. Again you're implying that we aren't trying hard enough. Which is just condescending, I don't need your help coming up with interesting ideas.

You can also do "classic" Dom-like stories outside of doms. You don't have to do the map game, you can stick to your starting hexes or gain more via diplomacy/invasions if you can find someone willing to write with you.

I hate fleeting, so I don't do fleeting. Am I whining about changing the fleeting rules? Nope. You want to magically gain hexes by... Doing all the things you could do in a dom, without doing it in a dom? Then you're the problem, not the 50 posts. There is a difference between a cause of a problem and a symptom. When all you do is whine about the symptoms and not the problem, then whatever change you put in place, you'll be whining about the same thing again not too long from now.

You don't have to do the map game, that's right, BUT THE MAP GAME IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. But we're talking about changing it so the map game isn't just a contest for the biggest blob. I didn't say I wanted to magically gain them, but the format of doms are boring and bland. But yes, continue to blurt out the same rhetoric over and over.

Also, you hate fleeting. You know what, fleeting isn't 90% of what most people do to play the map game. Also, there's a reason diplomancy/invasions or other hex gaining types aren't common. And, they are uncommon across the board. I'm not whining, grow up. The dominions are the problem, that difference of opinion doesn't make me that.

God, this is a headache.

And since you insist on bringing CIS back into the convo time and time again - go check our doms out. Have fun.

Only because your perspective comes from that. And, that perspective is out of whack because of it. And I have checked your doms out, they don't stray far beyond the needed requirements and are often propelled forward by the want for a greater influence cloud.

If needing to put work to gain things in a game in implies 'get gut', there's a bunch of non-Chaos related problems one needs to solve before coming on the site.

But no worries, I saw you harping about spreading more salt in the general discord chat. I guess some people are more interested in salt mining than they are in RP.

Nobody is saying we want stuff for free.

And that was a joke, but surely. Keep on harping rhetoric.