Parliament Poll

[Reverance]

Yeah, disagreement is a part of open discourse. So do it politely. Please.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

On the power and function of "Wills"

@Shacrath has stated that the Wills are supposed to function like Moffs. We need to figure out which era of Moffs they will function like, because in Star Wars lore they have played different roles depending on the time period - Sith Empire, Galactic Empire, and Krayt's Empire.

Problems with the "Sith Empire" approach and possible solutions

The biggest problem I see with modeling the Wills after Sith Empire Moffs was that the Moffs of that era were completely subordinate to the Dark Council over them. This would lead to problems if the intention is to have high-ranking NFUs on equal footing with high-ranking Sith. However, if people don't mind NFUs taking on a subordinate role, this could work.

Additionally, it was never made completely clear what exactly the Moffs duties were in the SWTOR era. But if we were to have a similar system, a solution might be to have them in charge of regional governments and military forces (as already stated), while still taking orders from the highest ranking Sith in our faction (whoever they are). The War Council would function similarly to the Dark Council, making all the major decisions of the Empire. The Wills would then basically be in charge of implementation. Then I suppose it would be assumed that the Moffs have various generals and admirals underneath them, thus making Will the highest attainable and most prestigious NFU position.

So essentially, the heirarchy would look something like this:

Emperor ----> War Council (comprised of only Sith) -----> Wills (comprised of only NFUs) ------> Admirals and Generals -------> Everybody else

Additionally, Wills would function differently than the Voice position, because Wills are directly in charge in only areas that the Sith Empire actually controls. It seems to me that the position of Voice is much grander and more theoretical in scope, because it divides the entire galaxy among five Sith, regardless of whether those territories actually belong to us or not. Perhaps the implementation of Wills would get rid of the need for Voices? Something to be discussed.

There is also the Galactic Empire and Krayt Empire approach, but I'm too tired to dive into that now. More on that later.

 

[Shachath]

Yeeeeaaah, you're just loads of fun so far, Dolfy. Considering I've never even spoken to you, would you mind toning down the personal digs before you go and piss me off? You got a personal problem with me? Keep it out of the forums and stop hiding behind alts and add me to skype QueenBee32262 and we can duke it out there, champ.

If not, shut it down, cause I'm over it.

Spoiler

Sorry to the OS members and admins for that, but no man refers to me as a PET and gets away with it.

As for your questions, I would be more than happy to try to address them to the absolute BEST of my ability.

has stated that the Wills are supposed to function like Moffs. We need to figure out which era of Moffs they will function like, because in Star Wars lore they have played different roles depending on the time period - Sith Empire, Galactic Empire, and Krayt's Empire.

Basically we aren't going to borrow directly from the canon and we're gonna do our own thing because no one likes to be confined to a tiny little pocket-version of something someone else wrote.

Well... that was easy, basically Ludolf, no one else wanted something over-complicated because they wanted to build something on their own. Which is completely understandable because it is a game where people world-build and get creative and do new things. If you dont want that, you can get in on the ground floor and work to change it through writing stories.

 

[Darth Vaildra]

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]

You still own that title and nothing I said was a joke in that, you're being an ass. Your concerns are valid and I could careless if you like the idea or not, it is how you are presenting your case and ideas that is only pissing people off. Also, who the hell are you? You bark all this and that about seeing her do stuff in the Republic and yet this is the first time I have ever seen you. Seems the bridge troll decided to come out.

If you also read I never called you an ass to begin with, I merely said you are making yourself out to be one. NOW I am calling you an ass, just so we are clear.

 

[Reverance]

Now I'm saying this and it will be the only time.

Make a personal insult against someone, say something personal in critique of an idea, or be demeaning in any way on this thread again (name calling, implying someone did something somewhere else, or anything). And I will request your removal from this topic.

This is an idea, attack it. Don't drag other people through the dirt to validate your point of view - it just weakens it.

Grow up people, we are adults. Let's act like it.

[member="Ludolf Vaas"] | [member="Lord Sebastian"]

Final warning.

 

[Tefka]

Or don't attack the parliament idea.

Just come up with a better one; a better direction for the faction.

Why fight uphill when you can pick a different battlefield?

 

[Reverance]

On the power and function of "Wills"

@Shacrath has stated that the Wills are supposed to function like Moffs. We need to figure out which era of Moffs they will function like, because in Star Wars lore they have played different roles depending on the time period - Sith Empire, Galactic Empire, and Krayt's Empire.

Problems with the "Sith Empire" approach and possible solutions

The biggest problem I see with modeling the Wills after Sith Empire Moffs was that the Moffs of that era were completely subordinate to the Dark Council over them. This would lead to problems if the intention is to have high-ranking NFUs on equal footing with high-ranking Sith. However, if people don't mind NFUs taking on a subordinate role, this could work.

Additionally, it was never made completely clear what exactly the Moffs duties were in the SWTOR era. But if we were to have a similar system, a solution might be to have them in charge of regional governments and military forces (as already stated), while still taking orders from the highest ranking Sith in our faction (whoever they are). The War Council would function similarly to the Dark Council, making all the major decisions of the Empire. The Wills would then basically be in charge of implementation. Then I suppose it would be assumed that the Moffs have various generals and admirals underneath them, thus making Will the highest attainable and most prestigious NFU position.

So essentially, the heirarchy would look something like this:

Emperor ----> War Council (comprised of only Sith) -----> Wills (comprised of only NFUs) ------> Admirals and Generals -------> Everybody else

Additionally, Wills would function differently than the Voice position, because Wills are directly in charge in only areas that the Sith Empire actually controls. It seems to me that the position of Voice is much grander and more theoretical in scope, because it divides the entire galaxy among five Sith, regardless of whether those territories actually belong to us or not. Perhaps the implementation of Wills would get rid of the need for Voices? Something to be discussed.

There is also the Galactic Empire and Krayt Empire approach, but I'm too tired to dive into that now. More on that later.

First part: Yeah, I see. That was sort of something that I felt could be developed by the story. Sort of the concept that the strength of the group is dictated by the activity of them with the inevitable notion that at any point, the War council can just smack them down. Push a tree till it bends, not break, sort of thing. Wills, in my perspective, are limited in role over their planet only by the imagination. For instance, I saw a king of a planet and the despot of another being capable of holding this position. However, a Charter developed by the legislative body could have mandate to define that with the Faction Admins, as members of the War council, holding veto for what lies in the best interest of the faction. I.e. we want creativity and new opportunity but not necessarily to stray so far from what we are as to be something entirely different.

So you want a chain of command, in the end, for the proposal? I'm fine with that. I think this proposal has a sort of fluid nature to it, allowing for us to develop it how the faction sees fit in a sort of as-built concept. When I asked Shachath to come up with a proposal, I told her to make me a house and if need be, we can expand it to a mansion. I look at Wills of "X Planet" are exactly that. Whether they represent the planet or represent their desire to maintain control over the planet, that's how I envisioned it (and not necessarily what needs to occur). I don't think it removes the need for Voices - I see it as part of the same scheme except one is a member of congress and the other is a member of the senate (just a metaphor, this isn't to say that the legislation would perform like that). Ultimately one has more power but that doesn't mean that neither serve a purpose.

I like where your thoughts on this matter are going, I'd like to hear more.

edit: I wasn't saying that the Wills needed to be elected. I was saying that I don't think it's something we should push out for lack of legitimacy. Simply put, if this legislative body is Rome, we shouldn't block any paths to be a part of it.

 

[Loxa Visl]

I think there's a common, happy ground to be found through all this ... muck. I also believe that most of us are churning along the same tracks, we just haven't recognized it yet.

As it stands, there seems to be a very large support for the idea of a centralized governmental type body for One Sith. Does it have to be a democracy? Absolutely not. Does it have to follow the same song and dance of previous canon set ups? No, it doesn't, but we can certainly draw inspiration from them and make them our own.

Let's just quickly take a look at the purpose behind this proposal:

• A need for further consolidation of the existing powers of the One Sith - to create a bit more order within what is currently a bit unorganized.
• A need to pull the subfactions of the OS together, to get them more involved in the clockwork of the main faction and to incorporate their ideas in a way that works both IC and OOC. To help make both main and sub factions more cohesive.
• A need to open up more roles for NFU characters - to grow possibilities of their involvement and advancement within the faction. To draw new members who might not have considered OS before simply because they "don't write Sith".
• A need to offer another RP setting within OS that caters to those who prefer political intrigue over Space Magic and Warfare.

That being said, I think we can accomplish all these things here. I like the idea of hierarchy as detailed by [member="Ludolf Vaas"] and I also like the basic set up as proposed by [member="Shachath"]

Can we get these two ideas in a closet for 5 minutes of fame and produce a functional offpsring?

 

[Natasi Fortan]

Can we get these two ideas in a closet for 5 minutes of fame and produce a functional offpsring?

 

[Darth Vaildra]

[member="Reverance"]

You're right, I was out of line. You know me, I get fired up when people pick on other people and thus, fight fire with fire. Not the humble way to go about things, but I am human lol.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

Basically we aren't going to borrow directly from the canon and we're gonna do our own thing because no one likes to be confined to a tiny little pocket-version of something someone else wrote.

Everything we do is based in canon to some degree. To disregard canon completely is pretty silly, since a) this faction, like every other major faction, is already based on it and b) canon can provide helpful resources and direction for ideas.

Also no offense but I don't care about your skype, anything I want to say to you can be said right here in front of everybody.

Well... that was easy, basically Ludolf, no one else wanted something over-complicated because they wanted to build something on their own. Which is completely understandable because it is a game where people world-build and get creative and do new things. If you dont want that, you can get in on the ground floor and work to change it through writing stories.

Thing is, this proposal was going to be rather complicated no matter what. We already have a bit of a complicated (and in my opinion, confusing) heirarchy here and we now have to figure out how to incorporate this system into that as seamlessly as possible. Which is what I'm trying to do right now.

On to the business.

irst part: Yeah, I see. That was sort of something that I felt could be developed by the story. Sort of the concept that the strength of the group is dictated by the activity of them with the inevitable notion that at any point, the War council can just smack them down. Push a tree till it bends, not break, sort of thing. Wills, in my perspective, are limited in role over their planet only by the imagination. For instance, I saw a king of a planet and the despot of another being capable of holding this position. However, a Charter developed by the legislative body could have mandate to define that with the Faction Admins, as members of the War council, holding veto for what lies in the best interest of the faction. I.e. we want creativity and new opportunity but not necessarily to stray so far from what we are as to be something entirely different.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you propose we give the Wills a veto function over the War Council?

It's a possibility, but I think we might not need something like that and here's why. The War Council, even though being de jure more powerful than the Wills, would still need to at least make an effort to court their favor. If whatever decisions the Council makes are hugely unpopular with the Wills, there would obviously be consequences for that. There is always the possibility of the Wills rebelling against the War Council if a motion is very unpopular, and there are in theory a lot more Wills than there are War Council members, which poses a problem to any Sith Lords on the War Council who are unpopular with the Wills. The Wills are also the ones who directly control military assets.

I'm reminded of SWTOR where a bunch of Sith Lords on the Dark Council had certain Moffs in their pocket who were utterly loyal to them, and of course this is in the Moffs' best interest to be in the pocket of somebody on the Council because they get to keep their job. But it goes both ways - the Sith Lords need to make sure they don't step on too many toes or else they could face open rebellion to their rule from the more numerous Moffs.

For example, If anyone played the Sith Inquisitor story on TOR,

Spoiler

one part of the storyline was that the Inquisitor PC needed to court the favor of Moff Pyron in order to make use of the Moff's forces in his war against the forces loyal to Darth Thanaton, and it was these forces that ultimately let him win the war.

So to summarize, while the War Council would be more powerful than the Wills, they can't simply walk all over them, by virtue of the fact that the Wills are powerful assets in themselves, and a Council member might potentially need their assistance if they are ever engaged in a civil war-type struggle with another Sith on the Council.

I don't think it removes the need for Voices - I see it as part of the same scheme except one is a member of congress and the other is a member of the senate (just a metaphor, this isn't to say that the legislation would perform like that). Ultimately one has more power but that doesn't mean that neither serve a purpose.

Yes, as I've now come to understand it the Voice seems to be a more esoteric position that is more involved in macro-management of a broad swath of space, rather than micromanaging specific OS territories like a Will. So I guess there is no need to get rid of them.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

I would also like to add one final note. I really don't mind it if the NFUs are ultimately less powerful than the War Council.

To be honest I think that's probably how it should be.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

I like that idea.

Like the Sith would be playing a sort of political chess game with the Wills, moving those that are loyal to them into specific positions and roles to try and outmaneuver their Sith opponents.

 

[Isamu Baelor]

NFU should have a position that they can strive towards that is equivalent to what FU can get to.

There really shouldn't be a lower ceiling just because you chose your character to not be force-sensitive.

 

[Kenrath]

NFU should have a position that they can strive towards that is equivalent to what FU can get to.

There really shouldn't be a lower ceiling just because you chose your character to not be force-sensitive.

From my understanding of how the different discussions tie in together this idea is being heavily tied this very discussion. It seems some of the War Council seats will be held by NFU Generals and Admirals.

I don't think we will ever see a NFU Hand or Voice but some progress is better than no progress.

Of course nothing is set in stone until the Admins write and pin it.

 

[Loxa Visl]

It was stated in the previous discussion thread that the Admins have agreed to open up the position of Voice to NFUs.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

There really shouldn't be a lower ceiling just because you chose your character to not be force-sensitive.

This honestly doesn't bother me at all. In every version of the Empire we've seen, the absolute top positions have always been occupied by Sith. Ultimately the Sith are going to want to be the ones who rule their own system, that just makes sense. That's not to say there isn't room for very powerful NFUs.

In the system described above, Moffs (for future reference I'm calling them Moffs instead of Wills because it's just easier for me) are still quite powerful. Anyone who attains the position of Moff will outrank most Sith Masters in the faction and technically be their boss. The only ones they have to answer to would be the five or six Sith on the War Council. And that is de jure, not always de facto. As explained, sometimes the Sith on the War Council might need to cater to them.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

It was stated in the previous discussion thread that the Admins have agreed to open up the position of Voice to NFUs.

Instead of this, if we're going to be putting an NFU or two on the War Council, why not make a position that is unique to them?

What about giving the Speaker of the Wills (a.k.a. Grand Moff, or High Moff) a seat on the War Council?

 

[Loxa Visl]

That's a possibility. Though then we're adding more titles - which was a subject raised by a few others that more titles will make things cluttered. Simply allowing NFU's to attain the rank of Voice seems an easier, more concise route in my opinion.

 

[Darth Isolda]

It was stated in the previous discussion thread that the Admins have agreed to open up the position of Voice to NFUs.

To clarify this for ALL who are concerned about NFUs and the Voice position.

The position of a Voice of a Dark Lord has - ALWAYS - been open to ambitious NFU's who are active and driving members of the faction. Be active and you get rewarded.

This faction was created with an NFU Voice to begin with and had several other NFU voices.

However, if members fall to inactivity, as these positions are important to faction threads, the members may be replaced.