Jairus Starvald
Eidoloclast
Let's not go back to those days please.Darth Isolda said:
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Parliament Poll
- Thread starter Reverance
- Start date
- Status
Ludolf Vaas
"Trust me"
True, but the original plan for this idea was to have some kind of Grand Moff figure to begin with. Only thing was, nobody was exactly sure what his powers would be.Eske said:
Maybe this could be it.
Chosen Of Vahl
*beats back *Darth Carach said:
nihil
[member="Ludolf Vaas"]
The original proposal actually had a council, like a war or privy council or what have you, where the speaker of the will or grand moff held a direct advisory position to the Wrath/Eye/Dark Lord. However, it would be worth considering both that and the addition of a couple of very powerful nfu's on the war council.
So my question is this, and maybe you have suggested this and I missed it, but who would be on the war council? Wrath (1), Hand (2), Voices (5), Shadow (1)Eye (1), Grand Moff (1), Naval/Ground warfare leaders? In this situation, we could state that the warfare leaders aren't restricted to either FU or NFU and can be dictated by activity and influence. I think 13 on the war council makes sense, odd number and what not with multiple spots fillable by an NFU (Grand Moff, naval and ground leaders, voices).
The original proposal actually had a council, like a war or privy council or what have you, where the speaker of the will or grand moff held a direct advisory position to the Wrath/Eye/Dark Lord. However, it would be worth considering both that and the addition of a couple of very powerful nfu's on the war council.
So my question is this, and maybe you have suggested this and I missed it, but who would be on the war council? Wrath (1), Hand (2), Voices (5), Shadow (1)Eye (1), Grand Moff (1), Naval/Ground warfare leaders? In this situation, we could state that the warfare leaders aren't restricted to either FU or NFU and can be dictated by activity and influence. I think 13 on the war council makes sense, odd number and what not with multiple spots fillable by an NFU (Grand Moff, naval and ground leaders, voices).
Isamu Baelor
Protector of The Iron Realm
[member="Reverance"]
I think all positions should be open to NFU, as long as they have earned it with hard work, and contributions to the faction. Only if the positions are actually vacant. I'm not saying anyone should be kicked out.
From what I understand, our faction has had problems keeping NFU. I can understand them leaving if the message is essentially "No matter how hard you work, how much you contribute, you will never be able to rise to these positions."
I think fairness to the members, and I mean all the members, has to take priority here.
I think all positions should be open to NFU, as long as they have earned it with hard work, and contributions to the faction. Only if the positions are actually vacant. I'm not saying anyone should be kicked out.
From what I understand, our faction has had problems keeping NFU. I can understand them leaving if the message is essentially "No matter how hard you work, how much you contribute, you will never be able to rise to these positions."
I think fairness to the members, and I mean all the members, has to take priority here.
nihil
[member="Isamu Baelor"]
Chicken and the egg. We retain more force users and thus, with the activity, they tend to nab the positions that require activity (voices and hands). Of course, the possibility is there for NFU to take it but it requires time and being there when the position opens up.
Really, the only position off limits to NFU is the Eye and I guess Wrath - I dunno about that second one, could happen I guess, but I don't really see the Dark Lord empowering an NFU to such proximal positions. Either way, your point is noted and of course, a large portion of this whole process is to find more meaningful ways to incorporate NFU's.
Chicken and the egg. We retain more force users and thus, with the activity, they tend to nab the positions that require activity (voices and hands). Of course, the possibility is there for NFU to take it but it requires time and being there when the position opens up.
Really, the only position off limits to NFU is the Eye and I guess Wrath - I dunno about that second one, could happen I guess, but I don't really see the Dark Lord empowering an NFU to such proximal positions. Either way, your point is noted and of course, a large portion of this whole process is to find more meaningful ways to incorporate NFU's.
Isamu Baelor
Protector of The Iron Realm
[member="Reverance"]
I'm new, so if that's the case, I'll defer to you and take back that part of my post. I'm glad that those positions are open to NFU. Of course it should go to the most qualified person, FU or NFU. If that wasn't clear from my post.
About the others though. The thing is, you know, ultimately this is just a game, but the game has got to be fair for all the players. If you're good at it, and you put in the effort, you should be able to reap the rewards. Even if we have to stretch in-universe logic a little bit to do it. This isn't real Star Wars canon, it's game made for everyone to be a part of and have fun : D
I'm new, so if that's the case, I'll defer to you and take back that part of my post. I'm glad that those positions are open to NFU. Of course it should go to the most qualified person, FU or NFU. If that wasn't clear from my post.
About the others though. The thing is, you know, ultimately this is just a game, but the game has got to be fair for all the players. If you're good at it, and you put in the effort, you should be able to reap the rewards. Even if we have to stretch in-universe logic a little bit to do it. This isn't real Star Wars canon, it's game made for everyone to be a part of and have fun : D
I Roved Out
I like fun.
So this seems to get getting somewhere now. [member="Ludolf Vaas"] I'm interested to see how you would re-do the framework of the system here now with everything discussed in mind? Seems to me there wouldn't be too many divergences from what was originally proposed but enough to warrant a re-draft.
So this seems to get getting somewhere now. [member="Ludolf Vaas"] I'm interested to see how you would re-do the framework of the system here now with everything discussed in mind? Seems to me there wouldn't be too many divergences from what was originally proposed but enough to warrant a re-draft.
Ludolf Vaas
"Trust me"
Was going to be my next point of discussion. I was thinking more or less what you just said, minus the Admirals/Generals. I don't see a need for them to be included on the War Council because the Grand Moff, who is supposed to function as a representative of all the Moffs, who in turn control the Admirals/Generals, is on the Council, so in a way they're theoretically represented.Reverance said:
I think "War Council" is a bit of a misleading term - the council would decide on all matters of state, not just warfare. In my mind it would operate like the Dark Council from TOR, with each Sith on the Council having a specific role, except with the addition of the Grand Moff having a seat.
So this would solve any issues that [member="Isamu Baelor"] brought up about NFUs not being as powerful as FUs. In this system the highest position available to a NFU, Grand Moff, is equal to the highest Sith positions. But there are still more Sith than NFUs on the "War Council", thereby not detracting from the overall predisposition to Sith leadership. In my opinion it is not necessary to let NFU's be Voices, but we'll leave that aside for now.
So in conclusion, the way I see it, the "War Council" would comprise of 11 individuals: 1 Wrath, 1 Eye, 2 Hands, 5 Voices, 1 Shadow, 1 Grand/High Moff.
[member="Eske"]
I'm gonna hopefully draw up this hierarchy in a nice, neat pictorial representation for those of us visual learners out there. That way it will be easier for people to see, understand and thus decide upon.
Kenrath
Well-Known Member
[member="Ludolf Vaas"] [member="Isamu Baelor"] [member="Reverance"]
I am going to have to go with Reverance and Isamu on this one.
Based on the current structure discussion on the Navy side the NFU pilots all go up to a single Grand Admiral (name still pending) at the top. The Army the same way according to the Player Army Ranks pinned topic.
They would make up the 12th and 13th position on the "War Council."
Effectively they give 3 guaranteed slots to active NFU characters. Which would have the result of encouraging more NFU activity since they would have something tangible to aspire to.
Plus more should there ever actually be another NFU Voice pop up in the faction.
I am going to have to go with Reverance and Isamu on this one.
Based on the current structure discussion on the Navy side the NFU pilots all go up to a single Grand Admiral (name still pending) at the top. The Army the same way according to the Player Army Ranks pinned topic.
They would make up the 12th and 13th position on the "War Council."
Effectively they give 3 guaranteed slots to active NFU characters. Which would have the result of encouraging more NFU activity since they would have something tangible to aspire to.
Plus more should there ever actually be another NFU Voice pop up in the faction.
Ludolf Vaas
"Trust me"
Now, a fancy pictograph-thang. Yay. Below I give my explanation for the hierarchy and address what I think will be common questions.
The High Council, or "War Council" as it is also being called (I chose High Council because I think it's a better name) functions basically like a combination of the Dark Council from the SWTOR era and the Moff High Council of the Krayt Empire era. It's pretty much the same War Council idea that is being tossed around, containing all of the faction's most powerful Sith, with the addition of its most powerful NFUs. The High Council convenes to make virtually all of the Empire's major decisions, from government policy to war, and is second only to the Emperor/Dark Lord himself.
But wait, why are there only 3 Voices?
We have always had 5 Voices, but historically these positions have been very hard to fill. It has been quite difficult to fill all five of these positions at the same time, something we've rarely, if ever, accomplished. Currently, we only have 3 active Voices, which seems to be the norm. So I've pared the position down to only 3 Voices, to include the ones we have right now. And, as per the job description, the galaxy would be divided into three, rather than five, spheres of influence.
This also opens up more room for NFU-exclusive positions on the High Council, which is what some people wanted to see. You'll notice that there are now not one, but two High Moffs, who sit on the High Council. I've also included the Director of Intelligence on the High Council (yes, in case you forgot, we have an Intelligence sector), based upon the fact that this position was also very prestigious in the Krayt Empire era, and it provides another avenue for NFU characters to attain power.
I'm reticent to add any more positions to the High Council - we're already at 11. Theoretically the High Council would best operate if all these positions were filled by active characters. If we have too many positions and not enough characters to fill them, that's going to be a waste.
Why aren't Grand Admirals/Grand Generals, etc. on the High Council?
Simply because Grand Admiral and Grand General are no longer the highest possible positions a NFU can obtain. They are now superseded by Moffs, the High Moffs and the Director of Intelligence. This, again, is based slightly on the Krayt Empire where Moffs generally seemed to wield more power than Grand Admirals and Grand Generals.
However, Grand General and Grand Admiral positions are still powerful, relatively speaking. As you can see, they would be equal in rank to an average Sith Master, as they fall under the "high ranking military" tier, and as such would still command a good deal of authority.
Do NFU's have equal opportunity for progression of power as FUs under this system?
This seems to be a common concern, and the answer is yes - in my opinion the system is quite generous to them, perhaps overly so. Observe that Moffs are actually more powerful than most Sith Masters. The only Sith they have to answer to are the ones on the High Council. That makes them quite powerful. And the High Moffs and Director of Intelligence are of equal rank to literally the most powerful Sith.
In my opinion, this gets rid of the need to open the Voice position to NFUs. They now have their own unique avenues to power and don't need to converge on the Sith titles.
Aren't there too many positions for Elite/Master rank characters, and doesn't that make the system a little top-heavy?
You'll notice that I color-coded the chart to show how the hierarchy fits into our rank system of Apprentice/Trainee - Knight/Adept - Master/Elite. Yes, there are a variety of unique positions open to only Master and Elite rank characters, much more than those of lower ranks. However, this is something that is actually desirable.
What this means is that your character's progression does not end upon hitting Elite/Master rank. In fact, that is only the beginning of an entirely new avenue of possibilities. Think of it like the endgame content of SWTOR. For those of you who have played, you know that hitting level 60 isn't the end of your journey, but in fact when the real game begins. It's the same idea here.
What is the High Council?The High Council, or "War Council" as it is also being called (I chose High Council because I think it's a better name) functions basically like a combination of the Dark Council from the SWTOR era and the Moff High Council of the Krayt Empire era. It's pretty much the same War Council idea that is being tossed around, containing all of the faction's most powerful Sith, with the addition of its most powerful NFUs. The High Council convenes to make virtually all of the Empire's major decisions, from government policy to war, and is second only to the Emperor/Dark Lord himself.
But wait, why are there only 3 Voices?
We have always had 5 Voices, but historically these positions have been very hard to fill. It has been quite difficult to fill all five of these positions at the same time, something we've rarely, if ever, accomplished. Currently, we only have 3 active Voices, which seems to be the norm. So I've pared the position down to only 3 Voices, to include the ones we have right now. And, as per the job description, the galaxy would be divided into three, rather than five, spheres of influence.
This also opens up more room for NFU-exclusive positions on the High Council, which is what some people wanted to see. You'll notice that there are now not one, but two High Moffs, who sit on the High Council. I've also included the Director of Intelligence on the High Council (yes, in case you forgot, we have an Intelligence sector), based upon the fact that this position was also very prestigious in the Krayt Empire era, and it provides another avenue for NFU characters to attain power.
I'm reticent to add any more positions to the High Council - we're already at 11. Theoretically the High Council would best operate if all these positions were filled by active characters. If we have too many positions and not enough characters to fill them, that's going to be a waste.
Why aren't Grand Admirals/Grand Generals, etc. on the High Council?
Simply because Grand Admiral and Grand General are no longer the highest possible positions a NFU can obtain. They are now superseded by Moffs, the High Moffs and the Director of Intelligence. This, again, is based slightly on the Krayt Empire where Moffs generally seemed to wield more power than Grand Admirals and Grand Generals.
However, Grand General and Grand Admiral positions are still powerful, relatively speaking. As you can see, they would be equal in rank to an average Sith Master, as they fall under the "high ranking military" tier, and as such would still command a good deal of authority.
Do NFU's have equal opportunity for progression of power as FUs under this system?
This seems to be a common concern, and the answer is yes - in my opinion the system is quite generous to them, perhaps overly so. Observe that Moffs are actually more powerful than most Sith Masters. The only Sith they have to answer to are the ones on the High Council. That makes them quite powerful. And the High Moffs and Director of Intelligence are of equal rank to literally the most powerful Sith.
In my opinion, this gets rid of the need to open the Voice position to NFUs. They now have their own unique avenues to power and don't need to converge on the Sith titles.
Aren't there too many positions for Elite/Master rank characters, and doesn't that make the system a little top-heavy?
You'll notice that I color-coded the chart to show how the hierarchy fits into our rank system of Apprentice/Trainee - Knight/Adept - Master/Elite. Yes, there are a variety of unique positions open to only Master and Elite rank characters, much more than those of lower ranks. However, this is something that is actually desirable.
What this means is that your character's progression does not end upon hitting Elite/Master rank. In fact, that is only the beginning of an entirely new avenue of possibilities. Think of it like the endgame content of SWTOR. For those of you who have played, you know that hitting level 60 isn't the end of your journey, but in fact when the real game begins. It's the same idea here.
I Roved Out
I like it. Seems a good compromise between the previously proposed structure and the points raised since.
I'll be heading off for vacation tomorrow. Whatever you guys decide upon I'll be happy to jump in to when I get back.
I'm also calling shotgun on Moff of Byss. I got my eyes on you, alllllll eight of them.
I'll be heading off for vacation tomorrow. Whatever you guys decide upon I'll be happy to jump in to when I get back.
I'm also calling shotgun on Moff of Byss. I got my eyes on you, alllllll eight of them.
Eske said:I like it. Seems a good compromise between the previously proposed structure and the points raised since.
I'll be heading off for vacation tomorrow. Whatever you guys decide upon I'll be happy to jump in to when I get back.
I'm also calling shotgun on Moff of Byss. I got my eyes on you, alllllll eight of them.
yess!
Chosen Of Vahl
Should be interesting to see. What are the total options?
We can gather them all up and post a new poll to see which our members desire to test out.
Remember, this is just to see if it can work with our faction. If it ends up that it just doesn't suit, we can always go back to the drawing board
We can gather them all up and post a new poll to see which our members desire to test out.
Remember, this is just to see if it can work with our faction. If it ends up that it just doesn't suit, we can always go back to the drawing board
Shachath
Character
I agree with Eske that it seems like the perfect compromise for the hierarchy.
I have two suggested changes:
1) Put the War Council and the "Parliament" on the same level under the High Council. The War Council and the Parliament serve different functions but I dont think the Parliament arm should necessarily answer to the War Council. So the ideal hierarchy is:
- Dark Lord
- Eye/Wrath
- High Council
- Parliament and War Council
2) Nix the title Moff. This term is more of an 'Empire' thing and Im pretty sure its already in use by the Imperial Remnant (I could be wrong.)
The point is, we dont want to just come across as just another canon knock-off. That's why we decided on calling them Wills. The term fits the OS a lot better and sort of follows the same OS formula for leadership positions.
Just my opinion.
I have two suggested changes:
1) Put the War Council and the "Parliament" on the same level under the High Council. The War Council and the Parliament serve different functions but I dont think the Parliament arm should necessarily answer to the War Council. So the ideal hierarchy is:
- Dark Lord
- Eye/Wrath
- High Council
- Parliament and War Council
2) Nix the title Moff. This term is more of an 'Empire' thing and Im pretty sure its already in use by the Imperial Remnant (I could be wrong.)
The point is, we dont want to just come across as just another canon knock-off. That's why we decided on calling them Wills. The term fits the OS a lot better and sort of follows the same OS formula for leadership positions.
Just my opinion.
Setzi Lunelle
Searching for Eleos's Altar
2) Nix the title Moff. This term is more of an 'Empire' thing and Im pretty sure its already in use by the Imperial Remnant (I could be wrong.)
I agree. Even though the Sith Empire had Moffs, it's more associated with the Galactic Empire or the Imperial Remnant.
I agree. Even though the Sith Empire had Moffs, it's more associated with the Galactic Empire or the Imperial Remnant.
*votes and shrugs*
Eternal Father
The Sith Empire that this faction claims to be a descendant of had Moffs (Krayt's Galactic Empire).
And despite the surprisingly fierce opposition against using the title of Moff, I am 100% for such a change.
I actually think it would bring in some NFUs who want to play as staunch Imperials, but since they don't find much in the way of the Moffs from the Legacy Era, they instead go to the other pure Imperial factions and thus detract from what could be a thriving NFU Imperial playerbase within the OS.
And despite the surprisingly fierce opposition against using the title of Moff, I am 100% for such a change.
I actually think it would bring in some NFUs who want to play as staunch Imperials, but since they don't find much in the way of the Moffs from the Legacy Era, they instead go to the other pure Imperial factions and thus detract from what could be a thriving NFU Imperial playerbase within the OS.
I would love it if people got past the old moff stuff and would adapt to new conditions. First of all, it's an ugly word; the title Will would seem a whole lot more powerful. Besides that, let's face it -- our faction is not called "The Galactic Empire" or whatever else along these lines. We are the One Sith and even our name states that we are mostly about the Sith. And to go along with the Sith theme, the title of moff is really not suitable if we have a far better title for such governors - one which would actually match the structure of our faction.Shachath said:
Plus moffs or whatever NFUs should not be more important than Sith if our faction is all about Sith. Equal, perhaps, but definitely not above Sith Masters. It would also not make a lot of sense ICly if NFUs suddenly became more important than Sith themselves.
By the way, [member="The Hound"], the rules state that if you're a FU, you have to have a FU rank title showed as one of the two official rank titles.
Eternal Father
The title and symbol of a Moff is canonical, and has weight behind it.
No one's gonna know what a Will is unless they actually read the description, but everyone and their mother will know what a Moff is and what they do.
That's the problem with the Wills, we're trying too hard to be different when maybe we should use what already has grabbing power behind it to reel in more NFUs.
No one's gonna know what a Will is unless they actually read the description, but everyone and their mother will know what a Moff is and what they do.
That's the problem with the Wills, we're trying too hard to be different when maybe we should use what already has grabbing power behind it to reel in more NFUs.
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