New Ship Guide Discussion

[Alli Vern]

I think that as a recommendation or guideline the guide is perfect and it seems that those are just the maximum's ( though by putting a hard limit like that your just asking people to make ships with those numbers) But lets say I make my ship a glorified gunboat. Could I sacrifice another area and have even more guns than what is the supposed maximum? I mean not that I am going to but obviously said ship would be terrible at other things which would balance it out. I just think that putting a hard max like that is detrimental and encouraging people to use those as the new standard. I think that if we make this a guide/and or suggested max for an average vessel and such that it is great an a much needed thing. But by making max's like that you are telling people what is allowed and they will push it to that. I just think your better off with medians and not putting a hard limit because your encouraging people to make these limits the new normal. I give it a day before someone has a ship with the exact stats of your maximums for each category.

 

[Torjesgo]

That's the fault of the tech creators not the rules.

What's been created here is a way to keep them from going overboard. If they want to grind right up against the limit, there is nothing saying they can't. The capital ships already all hug 2000m, but this is providing RPJs with a solid MAXIMUM to stop people from going overboard.

Take up the maxing out issues with people submitting the designs in the faction factories. There is plenty of time in there to voice concerns within the faction about what seems to be too gamey, too powerful, or unnecessary.

 

[Qae Shena]

I want to point something out.

All the people complaining are experienced Factory designers, or at least people who consider them such, and yet not a one of them has considered this from the new person's perspective, or the experienced member who is still not proficient in Factory's perspective. Let me state this very firmly: the number of members who are comfortable with Factory are very much outnumbered, by a very significant amount, by those who are not. Right now you are complaining as the very privileged few who have a grasp on how to do this.

Consider this from their perspective. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and I still even now when not on staff receive a daily PM asking about the Factory, how to stat a gun count, or what is considered balanced. This guide helps those more than it hinders the people who are complaining about the fact that it 'limits' them. I don't see this being a limit; quite the opposite. People were told to nerf fighters, for instance, when they went over certain numbers. What you are seeing, right now, is the maximum. This means the upper limit a ship of any given size can reach. You are not under a compulsion to go higher. In fact, speaking as someone who has judged many times, these numbers are actually higher than many of the figures we handed out, and they are very consistent with the rulings presented in Factory. These numbers reflect those maximums that were already in place.

People who are complaining: step back and look at this logically, because I honestly feel you are complaining about nothing. You have been given a great boon in this guide, something that actually helps you, and you are now denigrating the work of Staff, after you asked them for codified numbers, that they have acquiesced to your requests. Please have a little more respect for their hard work, particularly that which you asked for.

 

[Matreya]

@[member="Qae Shena"] knows what he's talking about. I appreciate this wholeheartedly.

 

[Qae Shena]

Thank you, @[member="Zaiden James-Greyson"]. Glad to see someone appreciated my work.

 

[Darron Wraith]

@[member="Qae Shena"] and I do not get along one bit outside of this board. I will have to wholeheartedly agree with him on this, and ask those who are proficient in the factory to give this a shot.


Nothing was taken away, a definite ceiling was established. It helps keep the submitters and the judges on the same page. If this destroys your roleplaying creativity then please offer a better suggestion after you have tried this out and actually role played with your creations.

 

[Onrai]

I want to point something out.

All the people complaining are experienced Factory designers, or at least people who consider them such, and yet not a one of them has considered this from the new person's perspective, or the experienced member who is still not proficient in Factory's perspective. Let me state this very firmly: the number of members who are comfortable with Factory are very much outnumbered, by a very significant amount, by those who are not. Right now you are complaining as the very privileged few who have a grasp on how to do this.

Consider this from their perspective. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and I still even now when not on staff receive a daily PM asking about the Factory, how to stat a gun count, or what is considered balanced. This guide helps those more than it hinders the people who are complaining about the fact that it 'limits' them. I don't see this being a limit; quite the opposite. People were told to nerf fighters, for instance, when they went over certain numbers. What you are seeing, right now, is the maximum. This means the upper limit a ship of any given size can reach. You are not under a compulsion to go higher. In fact, speaking as someone who has judged many times, these numbers are actually higher than many of the figures we handed out, and they are very consistent with the rulings presented in Factory. These numbers reflect those maximums that were already in place.

People who are complaining: step back and look at this logically, because I honestly feel you are complaining about nothing. You have been given a great boon in this guide, something that actually helps you, and you are now denigrating the work of Staff, after you asked them for codified numbers, that they have acquiesced to your requests. Please have a little more respect for their hard work, particularly that which you asked for.

If they want to set guidelines for how things should be with balanced, heavy, and fighter-heavy ships(along with the variety of fighters and whatnot), I've no issue whatsoever with it. It'll serve as an exceptionally simple basis new members can use in order to develop their ships. It was merely mandation I had an issue with. As for asking about codified numbers - I know that I personally didn't ask for this sort of modification to the rule set. If others did, and they outnumber my having not done so, I suppose I'm outnumbered and it doesn't matter.

@[member="Qae Shena"] and I do not get along one bit outside of this board. I will have to wholeheartedly agree with him on this, and ask those who are proficient in the factory to give this a shot.


Nothing was taken away, a definite ceiling was established. It helps keep the submitters and the judges on the same page. If this destroys your roleplaying creativity then please offer a better suggestion after you have tried this out and actually role played with your creations.

Dear God... IT'S A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE! :O

 

[Darron Wraith]

@[member="Pandeima"]. That's the thing though, these should be as far as these numbers are pushed. There's simply no need for more, go look at those load -outs and tell me they aren't on par with the most powerful ships of their type. You keep talking creativity, and I keep hearing the push for more gun barrels.



To your second statement, even people who don't get along can agree on things.

 

[Onrai]

It's still a sign of the apocalypse and you know it. /dives into fallout shelter

@[member="Saelia Santori"] and @[member="Gregor Gideon"] may be getting their nuclear war sooner than planned... :O

 

[Qae Shena]

As @[member="Jacen Cavill"] said. Common sense should not necessarily exceed a disagreement between two people.

I denied a number of ships that exceeded the maximums that are now posted. Why people are complaining is beyond me.

 

[Onrai]

C'mon... I'm trying to make a video game-related joke... Sigh. Never mind. As long as these are only guidelines and not solid mandates, I've no issues.

 

[Qae Shena]

These should be mandates. In fact, they already were. Why is it such a big deal that you are now seeing them visibly published?

 

[Onrai]

I was referring to "guidelines" as in "you can only make a ship up to this level of armament and hangar space for this size class," but if you want to tell more about these evidently being mandates long before the factory's revision, mandates I and many other members didn't know about, please, continue.

 

[Qae Shena]

Think about all the ships of yours you've been told to lower the armaments of. You should know about them by now, all things considered.

 

[Onrai]

I assumed those were individual RPJ variances. I at least had no knowledge that there was any sort of mandate in place regarding starships aside from "they have to be approved, normal ships can't be longer than 2km." And if there was, I would've appreciated being shown the mandate - or at least being told about it. It would've saved a lot of trouble...

 

[Qae Shena]

You've just been shown the mandate. That's the point. That is what this is.

 

[Onrai]

I know... I'm asking as to why this mandate wasn't shown weeks, if not months ago, since you stated it has been in effect for some time now.

 

[Qae Shena]

Sometimes it takes a while to discuss and codify agreements between certain staff members that all people can directly apply and adhere to, as well as the fact that there's been a considerable turnover rate of Staff members in recent times, as well as the fact that there have been other major pressing issues to attend to rather than the Factory which, at is heart, is less of a concern for Staff than the loss of more than half the board's content.

Keep that in mind, honestly. This is coming in the wake of some major problems, the dregs of which we are still feeling and recovering from. As it stands right now, this is a step in the right direction after some considerable problems.

 

[Sarge Potteiger]

There was never a set 'mandate'. Staff didn't sit in Google Docs and put together a guide like this and then not show members for months on end.

Just, ya know, to clarify before Circe keeps talking about one thing and Qae keeps responding to something totally different.

 

[Darron Wraith]

We've had major turn over in staff as well as te board wipe, the factory is not a priority in the context of those two things. These maximum mandates have taken what was "common knowledge" and codified it. Plus this really helps the judges so we don't make mistakes when someone pushes the boundaries or is creative with their weapons counts.